View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21821
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I blame Limited (and the amount of money it makes them online).

    WOTC has decided they don't like Limited formats with Doom Blade because it makes Timmys feel bad after paying 6 mana for a Mythic bomb only to have it die, because bad players think winning Limited should be about luckdrawing your bomb and casting it, so they've been on a mission to power down removal spells over time. Even Oblivion Ring was overpowered as a draft common (picked over most rares), so they first upgraded it to uncommon and then started making it cost 1 more.
    Well, I agree in part. I do think that the "needs" of Limited are sort of at odds with Standard. And Standard at odds with Modern. And EDH with the rest. And so on. I've said as much before and not coincidentally, Wizards apparently realized/recognized the same sort of thing, which is why I think we see now Brawl/Collectors Boosters/whatever the new model is. One size fits all products just aren't serving the many segmented needs and the pressure on Design seems to have consequences. I'm not trying to make it seem like I am some genius or anything, I'm juts pointing out that this was sort of "in the cards."

    Thing is, these bans, well, we don't know their full effect. I saw Todd Anderson streaming last night with the hashtag #StandardSucks, so that is in the air. But what's the net-end effect on sales? We don't know that unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    As a concession to Standard, they would print 1-2 pieces of "premium" removal at rare (Hero's Downfall, Murderous Rider, Bedevil, Never // Return, Ruinous Path..), just slow enough and rare enough to not warp Limited. Or they would print cheap uncommon removal that's hard to cast (Tyrant's Scorn, Angrath's Rampage). But this "premium" removal is still underpowered compared to old staples like Doom Blade, Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile.

    To some extent I think they're pandering to the same type of players in Standard. They want players to resolve the big dumb creatures and big planeswalkers, so they keep powering up creatures (harder to kill or ETB/dies effects) while powering down cheap answers (counters, removal).


    Creatures still die? Ok, let's just add more text to them. Eventually they start printing dumb stuff like Questing Beast and Hydroid Krasis and then wonder why Forest wins tournaments.
    Well, that is why we just don't know the end-game here? Is this all leading to higher sales? And higher sustained sales?

    If people are complaining, but still buying, then it's a win for Wizards. But I'm not sure if it is or isn't. But I think the thesis is at least valid to consider, that while this is all bad for the actual playing of Standard, it is possible that it better for overall sales. Because, while Standard is likely the biggest segment in-itself, if all other segments see growth and there is only modest decline in Standard, then it's still a net-win.
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  2. #21822

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by morgan_coke View Post
    Standard has been to various degrees fucked for awhile, and it's always due to the same reasons: lack of safety valves and lack of answers.
    The oddest thing is that it seems like they realized this after they had to go through all those bannings, and they did start including safety valves and answers. Problem is, they didn't replace those safety valves and answers when it came to the lands. I can understand not bringing back Field of Ruin, I know some players were sick of it, but then just replace it with Tectonic Edge. It's again why I was sure they were going to print Tectonic Edge, or something like it, to replace Field of Ruin (and the other hate rotating out).

    When I bring up why their lack of answers to utility lands, what often gets told me is "Wizards of the Coast didn't realize how good Field of the Dead was." But that's precisely the point. You include cards like that so if you underestimate cards, you have an answer available.

    Sure, it's possible Tectonic Edge wouldn't be enough to hold Field of the Dead back (but Field of the Dead, despite its extremely high metagame share, actually only managed a single Top 8 at the Mythic Championship, making you wonder if maybe part of its dominance was simple hype and after the championship it might have died down). But it would have been a safety valve that could have helped, and wouldn't have left me as puzzled as I am by them not having such a card.

    The big issue they have now is planeswalkers. Most of the best 'walkers ever printed, in any format, plus a bunch of other good ones, are all in standard right now. And nobody outside of black has a kill spell for them. White is supposed to what, use a 4 mana sorcery speed enchantment as an answer? That half the 'walkers you want to hit with it can destroy or bounce?
    Ordinarily Sorcerous Spyglass, which is legal right now, would work pretty well as a "removal" spell for planeswalkers, and it can even be played by anyone. Problem is, they tacked on static abilities to planeswalkers, and Sorcerous Spyglass does nothing to those.

    The other thing they're dealing with right now is just a general lack of decent removal. There isn't even a Doom Blade variant available in standard right now. With the current setup, Angrath's Rampage is probably one of, if not the best removal spell in the format, because it answers a turn 2 Oko or other 'walker, and is still relevant against other stuff.
    Assassin's Trophy will take out any creature that Doom Blade will, and also hits planeswalkers, and in fact anything else. Problem is, it's Black/Green and thus limited in what decks can run it.

  3. #21823
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Ordinarily Sorcerous Spyglass, which is legal right now, would work pretty well as a "removal" spell for planeswalkers, and it can even be played by anyone. Problem is, they tacked on static abilities to planeswalkers, and Sorcerous Spyglass does nothing to those.
    I don’t think I’d want to put any kind of “answer” on the field right now as an artifact or creature. No matter what PW was ravaging your board in standard, you’d have to first name Oko.

  4. #21824

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    As a thought experiment, what cards could be unbanned and make new, powerful decks? I'm omitting the most iconic Vintage cards. The best I could come up with is Tinker, Necropotence, Memory Jar, Skullclamp, Survival of the Fittest and maybe Oath of Druids but that probably just enables another boring blue deck thats not all too different from something like Sneak and Show. Tinker and Necro are the most powerful of the cards listed and would probably just be used as combo enablers but their non-combo applications would be interesting i.e. artifact heavy decks and black heavy decks, respectively. Jar, Clamp and Survival are the most likely of these to be unbanned and are clearly powerful, especially Jar now with all the powerful colorless cards like Eldrazi, Karn and Chalice. Also, I guess you could unban Mana Drain to make some sort of Big Blue or XLU style deck too. That might be intersting as well. What do you guys think?
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  5. #21825

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    They do this every Tuesday or so...they do a potluck, a bouncy house, the whole shebang. Its byob though, so...you know...

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  6. #21826
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Not Legacy, but some Pioneer bans today:

    Announcement Date: November 4, 2019

    Pioneer:

    Felidar Guardian is banned.

    Leyline of Abundance is banned.

    Oath of Nissa is banned.


    Tabletop Effective Date: Nov 8, 2019


    Magic Online Effective Date: Nov 5, 2019


    The list of all banned and restricted cards, by format, is here.


    Next Pioneer B&R Announcement: November 11, 2019


    Over the past weeks, we've been thrilled to watch the community embrace the launch of the new Pioneer format. As we've previously stated, our plan is to watch the evolution of the metagame closely and make agile changes as needed, with possible updates each Monday for the time being. Our goal with these early changes is to promote diverse deck strategies and healthy gameplay, whether or not there is a clear overpowered deck.


    In this case there are two decks that are head and shoulders above the field: Four-Color Copy Cat and Green Devotion Ramp. These two decks have earned the most 5-0 league finishes on Magic Online and have problematically high win rates against the field. Both decks feature play patterns that would reduce metagame diversity over time. Based on Magic Online data, we don’t believe that regular metagame pressure alone will be enough to keep these strategies in check. As a result, we are banning Felidar Guardian, Leyline of Abundance, and Oath of Nissa.


    The Felidar Guardian/Saheeli Rai combination threatens metagame diversity by requiring decks to present specific types of early interaction while developing their own strategy or else immediately lose the game. Rather than allow this combination to warp deck building and the metagame around it, we're choosing to ban a card. Of the two options, Felidar Guardian is the most likely to break again with existing or future cards.


    Leyline of Abundance not only enables explosive ramp starts on its own but also provides two devotion for no mana cost to power up Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Our hope is that in the long term, Nykthos can add diversity to the metagame as a part of fun and healthy devotion strategies. Therefore, we're choosing to ban Leyline of Abundance as the card that enables the deck's fastest, most powerful opening turns.


    As a powerful card-selection tool that also brings other synergies by leaving a permanent on the battlefield, Oath of Nissa has been a strong contributor to the strength and consistency of these and other strong decks. It's likely that Oath of Nissa would continue to exacerbate problematic strategies going forward. It also greatly contributes to the consistency of strategies that utilize a large number of three-mana planeswalkers in a way that can create unhealthy play patterns. For these reasons, we believe Pioneer will be a more fun and diverse format without Oath of Nissa.


    Note that we will continue to make Pioneer announcements every Monday—whether or not we have changes—for the time being. Eventually, Pioneer updates will become aligned with our normal banned and restricted announcements. We'll announce when that switch will take place in the final weekly Pioneer format announcement.


    We'll be watching closely for the next steps in the development of the metagame. We look forward to watching you all continue to enjoy this amazing new format!
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...-announcement/
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  7. #21827
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Makes you wonder Leyline of Abundance hasn't caught on in Legacy or Modern. Is it really that bad? It seems pretty silly with mana dorks or fetch/GSZ for Dryad Arbor, based on what it could pull of cards in Pioneer.

  8. #21828
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Makes you wonder Leyline of Abundance hasn't caught on in Legacy or Modern. Is it really that bad? It seems pretty silly with mana dorks or fetch/GSZ for Dryad Arbor, based on what it could pull of cards in Pioneer.
    I don't know about Modern, but the deck was consistent partly because it didn't run much interaction. It might work in Legacy (or Modern, at that), but I think you'd lose to faster, more powerful combos pretty often. Elves is probably just more resilient though.
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  9. #21829
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Wait, they banned bad-Ponder? What a great start for a format lol.

  10. #21830

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The green Devotion lists looked pretty strong so this isn't surprising that they hit a piece of that deck but I wasn't expecting two. Ditto for Felidar Guardian since the CopyCat deck has a pretty solid plan B.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  11. #21831
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Wait, they banned bad-Ponder? What a great start for a format lol.
    It contributed to too much consistency for 3-mana Okos, er, planeswalkers.

  12. #21832
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I look at it as more of that they understand more now how powerful cantrips are and are much more willing to nip them in the bud before it gets out of hand. This one also fixed Mana and added to devotion counts, so it's very good
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  13. #21833
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I look at it as more of that they understand more now how powerful cantrips are and are much more willing to nip them in the bud before it gets out of hand. This one also fixed Mana and added to devotion counts, so it's very good
    Yeah, but like it's basically the same thing as Adventurous Impulse, and really close to Incubation // Incongruity and Commune with Dinosaurs. You can't just keep banning the type of card you are actively putting into most limited environments. Sure Oath finds PWs, but it also doesn't fuel delve at the same speed as these other three; this is clearly an Oko problem. WotC doesn't exactly have the best track record for developing cards for limited/standard that don't screw up older formats, and banning a card you're definitely going to basically reprint is short-sighted format management.

    Edit: this green land-trip idea has shown up in every limited environment without disruption dating back to at least Aether Revolt/Kaladesh stuff right?

  14. #21834

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Yeah, but like it's basically the same thing as Adventurous Impulse, and really close to Incubation // Incongruity and Commune with Dinosaurs. You can't just keep banning the type of card you are actively putting into most limited environments. Sure Oath finds PWs, but it also doesn't fuel delve at the same speed as these other three; this is clearly an Oko problem. WotC doesn't exactly have the best track record for developing cards for limited/standard that don't screw up older formats, and banning a card you're definitely going to basically reprint is short-sighted format management.

    Edit: this green land-trip idea has shown up in every limited environment without disruption dating back to at least Aether Revolt/Kaladesh stuff right?
    Not only is Oath of Nissa just better in a vacuum than all the cards you listed (planeswalker/any creature is clearly better than 'Dinosaur', let's be real), it has a lot of weird incidental upsides
    - Adds devotion
    - You can pick it up with teferi
    - You can flicker it (admittedly with cat banned this is less of an issue)
    - Fixes mana

    You do have a reasonable point and a lot of people are wondering why OUAT is also not banned under the same reasoning but all of these other cards are clearly much worse.
    Just because Ponder/Preordain are banned in modern doesn't mean they have to ban Serum/Sleight/Opt

    It's not even clear how obnoxious Oath would be in the new version of the format with no Cat/Leyline but the ban seems reasonable

  15. #21835
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Oko's gone.. In brawl

  16. #21836
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Veil of Summer is now banned in Pioneer
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
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  17. #21837
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Veil of Summer is now banned in Pioneer
    Has anyone been playing Pioneer?

    From the outside, seeing the list of banned cards makes me think it must be awful.

  18. #21838
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Has anyone been playing Pioneer?

    From the outside, seeing the list of banned cards makes me think it must be awful.
    I have and it's just an interesting dynamic where the most dominant color is green! Prior to first ban the deck to beat was Green Stompy and post first ban it was green stompy and it will probably be green stompy until Nykthos gets banned but they expressly stated they don't want to ban it. So next casualty will probably be OUAT.
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  19. #21839
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    What card is OUAT?

  20. #21840

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    What card is OUAT?
    Once upon a time

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