All B/R update speculation.

[Koby]

I had a thought today about how to relive TEES, and it involved a bunch of bad cards that still wouldn't work well together. Concordant Crossroads + Fauna Shaman is no SotF. Keep it banned for the health of Legacy's sake.

[Blitzbold]

Yes. It is. And this is coming from someone who played the fuck out of it the entire time it was legal.

Survival can come off with Vengevine still legal when every color has an amazing card that is good on its own but is also, incidentally, savage graveyard hate.

Doesn't Surgical Extraction fit this? I doubt it's enough, though.

I'd love to see Survival back in the format as it was part of different strong decks throughout the history of the format and therefore kind of belongs here in my view.

Who didn't liked ATS when it was good? However, I doubt that we'll see SotF anytime soon again.

WotC probably has a good idea how cards in the nearer future will look like. Although they don't mention this as a selling point when giving reasons for bannings, but I developed some kind of scepticism over the years. Maybe they even knew that Miracle cards would be pretty good in a format with Mystical Tutor legal? ;)

[feline]

Deed doesn't have X in its CMC.

Omg why did I confuse that! LMAO.

[Vacrix]

I wonder how the Miracle mechanic will affect Mana Drain's power if it gets unbanned (or considered). Now people have a method of casting spells that cost like 5 to 7 for a significantly reduced cost. Terminus, Retreat the Angels, and Devastation Tide are all legacy playable (and perhaps Thunderous Wrath and Temporal Mastery).. Decks could counter these spells and then have access to enough mana to cast their own Miracle spells they are holding in hand. Frankly, Mana Drain into Retreat the Angel seems like it could be pretty fucking amazing. UW Control would love itself some Mana Drain right now.

I bring this up because previously people were saying that there isn't much that you want to cast with Mana Drain right now, but with stuff like Retreat the Angels.. perhaps Mana Drain could have some applications in Legacy. Also, Force and Jace aren't going anywhere so there are still some pretty high costed cards that make Mana Drain strictly better than Counterspell in the control mirror. Also, Nic Fit is doing pretty well right now and that deck hard casts stuff at like 6cc... Perhaps an unbanning of Mana Drain would even allow decks to play cards they don't normally play simply because they will have access to tons of mana in certain matchups. Temporal Mastery, being one such card. Also, there is Fireblast which sees play in Burn and UR Delver.

Other plays I could see being made with Mana drain are Drain into Batterskull, other equipment, Jace (to leave some lands untapped for cantrips/countermagic/removal), Deed activations at costs that can destroy stuff like Sneak Attack/Hive Mind/Dream Halls or even fatties if you have enough mana with lands, and in a deck like Faerie Stompy you could cast a bunch of Stax pieces with it too.

Mana Drain would primarily be good in the control mirror and against decks like Nic Fit and Show and Tell variants because they have spells that cost more than 4 where you can actually profit well from a Mana Drain. It could also be good against UR Delver which often plays both Fireblast and Force of Will. Also, Spell Snare still exists for the post-board and with Vial AND Cavern, I can't see this hurting aggro too much. I'd say with most of the Legacy control power resting with Tempo decks ATM, unbanning Mana Drain is safe and could potentially add some balance to the format.

[Aggro_zombies]

Doesn't Surgical Extraction fit this? I doubt it's enough, though.

I'd love to see Survival back in the format as it was part of different strong decks throughout the history of the format and therefore kind of belongs here in my view.

Who didn't liked ATS when it was good? However, I doubt that we'll see SotF anytime soon again.

WotC probably has a good idea how cards in the nearer future will look like. Although they don't mention this as a selling point when giving reasons for bannings, but I developed some kind of scepticism over the years. Maybe they even knew that Miracle cards would be pretty good in a format with Mystical Tutor legal? ;)

A couple of things.

1) Strong graveyard hate existed during the Survival-Vengevine era. That didn't stop Survival from acting as a perfectly good tutor engine in an aggro-control shell. If you went overboard with graveyard hate, they'd get you with dudes; if you went overboard with dudes hate, they'd Fireball you with Vengevines.

2) Avacyn Restored wasn't in development when Mystical Tutor was banned. IIRC Design is about two years ahead of where were are now and Development is about a year ahead of where we are now.

One of the stated reason for the Mystical ban was that it limited R&D's ability to make interesting and strong spells or spell mechanics; anytime a really good spell came out, Mystical would be there to abuse the shit out of it in Legacy. R&D would rather see the common denominator enabler banned for several reasons:

1) They could ban each of the cards it enables, but they got burned once by this with Necropotence;

2) They want people to buy new cards and banning them in Eternal formats disincentivizes this;

3) Having new cards continuously enter the format is one of the few ways to keep Eternal formats from stagnating. If the new cards were constantly getting banned, the format would likely reach a point wherein the underlying architecture is always the same but the format might deviate from it every now and then until a ban happened.

Mystical and Survival both fall into a category of cards that push players to behave in ways R&D doesn't like for the above three reasons. Sure, Survival might be fine with Vengevine banned, but VVine showed that Survival is easily pushed into "overpowered" territory with the right type of card and therefore can be re-broken at any time. But this argument is already rather played out.

I realize most Legacy players would rather play with old toys than new ones, but I think a dynamic format is better than one wherein people continue to mash the same stale decks against each other for years.

[frenchy-man]

Well, I also think that survival could deserve to be unban.

First, they have created surgical extraction. This card fits perfectly well in the sideboards of every decks, and perfectly deals with those vengevine which were the main kill of the best survival decks. I think that this is the most important reason to unban survival. When sotf was banned, the only gravehate available to everyone was relic/tormod/faerie (and ligne ley that I don't take into account because of it's randomness). And it was very easy to dodge with those hate cards. Surgical seal the deal with vengevine plan.

What's more I think that almost every deck improved it's clock/redundancy.
Tempo decks obtained delver, dredge faithless, reanimator and sneak-noob.deck got griselbrand, storm got past in flammes...
That said, I think that all those decks, with these new weapons for them, could handle survival.decks more easily.

Waiting for your answer.

frenchy

[Malakai]

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:

Ante cards
Power 10
Mystical, vampiric, demonic tutors and imperial seal
Balance
Earthcraft
Flash
Gush
Hermit Druid
Library of Alexandria
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Strip Mine
Sol Ring
Survival of the Fittest
Tolarian Academy
Windfall
Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will

Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.

A note on Survival of the Fittest: If you do not understand what makes this card unsafe then you need to work on your understanding of the fundamentals.

[nedleeds]

As per mods moving shitty attempt to argue for unrestricting other less ubiquitous cards in the face of Brainstorms stifling dominance.

Bazaar of Moxen 6: Brainstorm 7/8 top 8
SCG: Brainstorm 7/8, 10 or top 12

[Tacosnape]

Brainstorm doesn't exert "Stifling dominance." Some cards can show up everywhere without exerting stifling dominance. If 32 Wastelands showed up in a Top 8, would you call for the banning of it? (Has this ever happened? I've seen 28, but not 32) Ditto for Force of Will (It's happened), Noble Hierarch (I've seen 28), Swords to Plowshares (I've seen 28), Cabal Therapy (I've seen 24), Lightning Bolt (I've seen 24), Island, etc. Some cards are just the glue that holds things together, and some card is -always- going to be the best card that shows up more than the rest.

I'm personally more concerned that top 8's are averaging 12-16 Show and Tells, in three different Show and Tell combo decks.

[frenchy-man]

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:


Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.

A note on Survival of the Fittest: If you do not understand what makes this card unsafe then you need to work on your understanding of the fundamentals.

Just saying that the deck dominated only in the US. In Europe, the deck was very powerful, just as TT nowadays. The card was banned because of some american whiners. We adapted to the deck in Europed.

[rufus]

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:
...
Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.
...

You can add Channel and Fastbond to that list.

Mind's Desire seems like an odd inclusion in a list where all other cards banned for power level have an effective casting cost of at most 3. (Nothing at 4cc, and Gush at 5 is clearly there because of the alternative casting cost.)

[LOurs]

Just saying that the deck dominated only in the US. In Europe, the deck was very powerful, just as TT nowadays. The card was banned because of some american whiners. We adapted to the deck in Europed.

I'm european, I love SotF and this is a pretty nice story but this just isnt true, satistics easly show you're wrong, including with european tournaments results. Let's be realistic : a tutor engine at 1G was just not compatible anymore with the average powerness of recently released creatures. This could be said also with SnT, but the main difference is that SotF does provide to the the ability to search your deck the right solution to a difficult situation, but SnT does not. SotF was much much more versatile, less impressive in theory, but stronger in reality.

[joemauer]

I'm personally more concerned that top 8's are averaging 12-16 Show and Tells, in three different Show and Tell combo decks.

WotC probably printed Grislebrand so they could have a good excuse to ban Show and Tell.

I think Show and Tell will eventually get banned due the nature of card though. Sooner or later.

[menace13]

I'm personally more concerned that top 8's are averaging 12-16 Show and Tells, in three different Show and Tell combo decks.

Good to know that now it isn't Delvers and GSZeniths any longer.... :/

[kusumoto]

The following cards will never, ever be unbanned in Legacy:

Ante cards
Power 10
Mystical, vampiric, demonic tutors and imperial seal
Balance
Earthcraft
Flash
Gush
Hermit Druid
Library of Alexandria
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Strip Mine
Sol Ring
Survival of the Fittest
Tolarian Academy
Windfall
Wheel of Fortune
Yawgmoth's Will

Making a case that any of the above cards should be unbanned is at best wishful thinking and at worst self-delusion.

A note on Survival of the Fittest: If you do not understand what makes this card unsafe then you need to work on your understanding of the fundamentals.

Earthcraft? Really? I don't even understand why people are scared of this card. I bet nobody can produce a list of anything that goes over the top with this. So Elves might be good? That's fine isn't it?

I'm also a tad sick of people thinking Hermit Druid is the Bogey Man. Is there something other than a Cephalid Breakfast deck with a few less colors and dead cards that this guy can be used in? That's all I see and it isn't very scary.

[Vacrix]

Well... the fact that you could play GSZ into Hermit Druid seems pretty good because then it dodges counters and allows you to run virtual copies. Also, Hermit Druid is the breakfast refined. He allows you to save a lot of deck space, allowing you to play more cantrips, protection, etc.

Also, with access to something like Cavern of Souls (naming Human), this deck could play Hermit Druid through Countermagic, not to mention Vial.

Not saying it would bust the format up but it seems like it would be REALLY powerful.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well... the fact that you could play GSZ into Hermit Druid seems pretty good because then it dodges counters and allows you to run virtual copies. Also, Hermit Druid is the breakfast refined. He allows you to save a lot of deck space, allowing you to play more cantrips, protection, etc.

Also, with access to something like Cavern of Souls (naming Human), this deck could play Hermit Druid through Countermagic, not to mention Vial.

Not saying it would bust the format up but it seems like it would be REALLY powerful.

There's nothing wrong with that, I think. Reanimator and Dredge are both strong, graveyard-based linears; Show and Tell decks (of various flavors) and Reanimator are both strong blue-based combo decks with cantrips and disruption. The format could probably stand a Hermit Druid deck.

[kusumoto]

Well... the fact that you could play GSZ into Hermit Druid seems pretty good because then it dodges counters and allows you to run virtual copies. Also, Hermit Druid is the breakfast refined. He allows you to save a lot of deck space, allowing you to play more cantrips, protection, etc.

Also, with access to something like Cavern of Souls (naming Human), this deck could play Hermit Druid through Countermagic, not to mention Vial.

Not saying it would bust the format up but it seems like it would be REALLY powerful.

You save four slots. You also now have to wait for summoning sickness. If you try to come up with any nonsense solutions to that, those are just taking back those slots you just saved.

You need to pass the turn with a 1/1 green creature. Cavern sounds good and all, but it doesn't cast very much else. GSZ for the druid costs 3 mana.

I'm not saying it would be horrible. Really all he would do is make breakfast less bad. It would still be a deck that loses to all removal and graveyard hate and pithing needle.

Again, this is assuming there isn't something better than breakfast that can be done with him.

[dontbiteitholmes]

These cards could probably be unbanned.

Black Vise - Only concern = Stasis, which I would play because I'm a dick, so maybe not.
Earthcraft - Extremely Meh card. Does nothing on it's own and maybe only goes in Enchantress as a 1x if it goes anywhere.
Land Tax - Terrible card. Embarrassment to the ban list.
Mind Twist - Maybe
Mind's Desire - Worse than other options.
Shahrazad - This card was never a problem when it was played. If you have the balls to run this you should be able to.
Survival of the Fittest - You have a powerful card that was really good but not broken for 10 years, then you have a shitty card that breaks it and does absolutely nothing else. Fix your mistake WotC, ban Vine, unban Survival.

Earthcraft? Really? I don't even understand why people are scared of this card. I bet nobody can produce a list of anything that goes over the top with this. So Elves might be good? That's fine isn't it?

I'm also a tad sick of people thinking Hermit Druid is the Bogey Man. Is there something other than a Cephalid Breakfast deck with a few less colors and dead cards that this guy can be used in? That's all I see and it isn't very scary.

There are several ways to do it, but the end result is the same. Hermit Druid taps, and the game ends. He was considered broken in a time before Narcomoebas and Dread Returns and things have only gone more in his favor since then. Hermit Druid, a few combo peices, and the rest of the deck is disruption and non-basic lands. He has pretty good synergy with Cabal Therapy.

[I am the brainwasher]

Survival of the Fittest - You have a powerful card that was really good but not broken for 10 years, then you have a shitty card that breaks it and does absolutely nothing else. Fix your mistake WotC, ban Vine, unban Survival.

I'd like to see that also. I am quite fed up with Control beeing 45-55% of the meta.