Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
On one hand, yeah all these cards are mistakes that have no business being in the game, but on the other this is legacy. There's 25 years worth of cards to choose from, no duh I'm only going to play the most busted.
... And eater of days.
If you play wild nacatls, you must play Veil of summer (or not) too.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=24297&d=369651&f=LE
This is zoo with an upgraded nacatl (the elf). There's no Thalia, no kotr, no mother of runes. It's pretty far from Maverick. This has hierarchs and gsz. That doesn't mean Maverick just bc it's running gw.
-rob
It runs the Elf instead of KotR, using the same land toolbox. There's also a creature toolbox with GSZ including card choices like Ramunap Excavator that have no place in aggro.
Most of the turn 1 plays aren't beatdown. They're things like Hierarch, GSZ into Dryad, or Oath of Nissa... to accelerate into a 3-mana planeswalker. It's a 23-land midrange deck, not an aggro deck. The only thing in common with Zoo is the colors, Tarmogoyf, and Lightning Bolt...
There's two kinds of zoo decks historically.
1) more of a burn deck. Uses additional bolts, grim lavamancer, sometimes price of progress and even fireblast.
2)big zoo, which uses higher cc cards to go long game better against control. This used to usually finish the curve with elspeth and had fewer bolts. Sometimes it would also run punishing fires.
I don't see why this doesn't fit the criteria of the 2nd one.
If you want to call it midrange, then who cares. It's just semantics at this point.
It's a bunch of good creatures for the converted mana cost with wasteland + 4 stp 4 bolt.
-rob
I kept refreshing page 1104 not realizing page 1105 started.
Please give examples of which decks are actively pleased to see someone throw a turn for Oko.
No one is trying to tell you what to play in your deck. We are talking about a healthy format.
Combo / Midrange / Control - If you play combo, you don't care much about Oko (especially if you play creatureless combo), however, if you play Midrange or Control and Oko revolves on a light to empty board, it is pretty much game over.
Here's the mechanics on Oko. Your opponent can resolve a tier 1 creature turn 2 - Merit Leige token, Emrakul (off Show and Tell), Griselbrand, Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler, etc. I play Oko turn 3 and +1 your (5 counters on Oko) creature to a 3/3. Your turn 3 your attack Oko (2 counters). My turn 4 +2 make a food token, Oko has 4 counters. Your turn 4 you attack Oko (1 counter), my turn 5 I make my food token in to a 3/3 and now we have 3/3 vs 3/3 and I have Oko with 2 counters.
Oko's +1 ability should be -1, and food token should be +1 (not +2). -5 ability seems balanced (especially with -1, +1 for the other abilities), but currently, once Oko resolves, he is too hard to remove.
Challice allows a lot of decks to exist and it's not that hard to play around unless you are playing TES/ANT, even then I have had Storm players win with Chalice on 1 and in another game with Thalia on board, so it's not impossible, but I understand Chalice is Storm's kryptonite.
This is an interesting perspective. Two thoughts. First, RUG Tempo existed before Delver (with Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf), and if deliver were banned, the deck would likely continue with different creatures. Second, there are build constraints around Delver (you have to run ~ 27 instant/sorceries), which I think make it a balanced card.
+1
:D
Interesting point about Force of Will. Should they ban Force of Will and allow Force of Negation? If you banned Force of Will in Legacy, you would have to follow by banning Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Reanimate, and probably Lotus Petal. Force is a powerful card, but it costs you one life and you lose a blue card, which is usually something pretty good, like a Brainstorm, Ponder, Delver, or Oko. If your Force get's Veiled, then you lose a card and a life, your opponent draws a card and has Silence effect for the rest of the turn.
What kind of cards do you suggest for Green? I think Legacy could handle a G 3/3, comes into play tapped.
The Blasts red blasts do break the color pie because they are a) a red counterspell and b) red permanent removal, so they are a bit of an anomaly in legacy, printed early on, and not repeated since.
My biggest gripes about Veil vs. Blasts are that Veil, once resolved, provides a blanket effect. I would be more a fan if it were one-to-one or perhaps cleared the stack, but the whole turn is too powerful for G. Second, the card draw ability. A blue deck has no playable counterspells that draw spells, why does green get that - green is not known for counterspells or instant speed card draw, we have given a green card more powerful in both. If you made a blue card that did what Veil does, it would be absurd and never make it out of R&D. Legacy is so easy to splash/mana fix/play multiple colors, that Veil is being adopted by multiple decks and it does not signal a healthy shift for the format - Veil is being overplayed and we are seeing it in every deck from combo, to control, to midrange.
+1
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
If Veil of summer is so broken, WOTC must ban it in modern, no?. I repeat Veil of summer is legit because it only works VS blue-black spells and it doesn't destroy permanent like blasts. The metagame must shift.
No, not necessarily. Legacy has access to a lot more color-fixing and faster mana - Dual lands, lotus petal, mox opal, elvish spirit guide, chrome mox, etc., so it is a lot easier and faster to cast Veil in Legacy and the implications are also much higher. I don't play much Modern, but in Legacy, there is a lot of early game counter spells and it is not uncommon to have multiple spells on the stack. If a Veil resolves at the correct time, it can be a 2 or 1 or 3 or 1 and really shifts games.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
A few more points to make:
1) Power creep, this is from Grand Prix Bologna coverage on December 1, 2019, but I imagine it remains current:
"While Mengucci fell in the quarterfinals, Tristan Pölzl (playing BUG Zenith Oko) and Marc Vogt (playing Bant Miracles) kept on winning. They finished the Swiss in first and second seed, at 14-0-1 and 13-1-1 respectively, and eventually met in the finals.
Together, they put seven copies of Oko, Thief of Crowns in the finals, cementing the planeswalker as one of the best cards in the format. In fact, 37% of the maindeck spells between the GP Bologna finalists were printed in the last nine months. Given that Legacy players can choose cards from 26 years of Magic, this is giving rise to worries about power creep."
https://coverage.channelfireball.com/event/43
2) When I talk about the MTG color wheel and history, this is what I'm referring to - the historically balance between the colors that is built into the game: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...017-2017-06-05
I did a little research on Veil of Summer, and it turns out that it is not very balanced based upon the historic values of the colors. Taking Veil's major points and looking them up in the link above:
"Can't be countered
Primary: red and green
Secondary: blue
Red tends to have spells that can't be countered while green tends to have creatures that can't be countered. When blue does "can't be countered," which is less often, it's usually a more control-oriented card."
My biggest beef with Veil is the "spells can't be countered this turn" - can't be countered by permanents or abilities, can't be countered by Chalice of the Void or Counterbalance, can't be countered by Red, Blue, Green, White, Black, or Colorless cards (like Pyroblast), and can't be countered by any spells I have in my hand, but maybe can't cast due situational concerns (Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, etc.)
According to the blurb above, Green tends to have creatures that cannot be countered, red tends to have spells. Neither are known for having "Silence" effects that effect all spells on the stack and yet to be cast that turn.
"Card draw
Primary: blue
Secondary: black and green
Tertiary: white and red
Blue is the best at card drawing. It has the most of it and no restrictions. Black's card drawing must involve paying some other cost, most often life but sometimes sacrificing permanents. Green's card draw is usually tied to creatures but occasionally tied to land. White has a very narrow band of card drawing where it's focused on having to use a specific strategy (like say having a deck full of Equipment). All colors get cantrips (spells that draw you a single card). Red doesn't get any card advantage, with two exceptions—impulsive draw and wheeling. (See impulsive draw and wheeling)"
Blue is best at card drawing and has no playable counterspell in Legacy that draws cards. Green should not have one.
"Hexproof
Primary: blue
Secondary: green
Tertiary: white
Blue both has more creatures with hexproof and more often grants it as a pseudo-counterspell. Green tends to get hexproof on larger creatures without evasion. White gets hexproof infrequently, sometimes on players, in ways that feel like it's protecting the thing."
Hexproof is not a primary ability for green, especially not at instant speed. In green, hexproof tends to be reserved for larger creatures without evasion, not granted for all permanents (Land, Artifacts, Creatures, Planeswalkers, Enchantments) and yourself at instant speed.
Veil would be better suited as a blue card, but it would be too powerful, so it's a green card, which really doesn't mean much with all of the color fixing in Legacy.
Green needs better creatures. Some 1 and 2 casting cost creatures with hexproof, evasion, and/or flash coming into play effects. Green needs a new hate bear and some beaters if it is going to be viable.
3) Can we update the poll in the header? Interesting that Goyf is #2 in the poll and not even mentioned anymore.
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 01-26-2020 at 04:39 PM.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
Everybody knows that the most powerful spells are blue and black (I don't count artifacts)
Blue has Ancestral recall, Time walk, best counters, best cantrips, best planeswalkers, very bad designed cards like mental misstep or Gitaxian probe and the 3-4/10 of the best creatures ever played.
Black has tutors, rituals and best discard effects, Yawgmoth's will...
Veil of summer is overplayed because everybody play blue or black in legacy right now.
Before I go any further I should admit that I'm 100% biased. I love casting Veil.
Re:Force
Fast combo has been accepted as part of the format to the point where it's expected to exist. Cutting out any turn 2 kills would effectively create a new format overnight and MIGHT allow aggro as an archetype to be played, but even then the benchmark for cmc1 creatures is 3/2 with evasion and a 2/2 haste that makes your opponent play with their top card revealed. I don't know if your proposed creature is even good enough, []Old Growth Dryads can actually block the turn it drops and that isn't played.
As for Veil vs. Force being a 3-for-1, is that such a bad thing? Force of Will is no doubt one of the best spells in the format, and I like the idea of there being an incredibly dangerous foil to such a powerful card.
The idea of Veil is not a bad thing, but in it's present form, it is too powerful.
Force of Will is popular and played often, but vs. most fair deck, you take all or some copies out. Force is popular to keep combo in check and to push through offensive spells in some decks, but it requires other blue cards and has a high non-alternative casting cost. I think Force is necessary in Legacy or else turn 1 combo would take over and the format would probably become unfun.
Veil can be easily be a 3:1, 4:1, or 5:1. Force, casted with alternative casting cost, is automatically -1 card and 1 life.
Veil creates situations where, imagine a player has 2 FOW on the stack and a Veil resolves? That's -4 cards and 2 life for one player and card parity for the other player.
Cards like Daze, Spell Pierce, and Flusterstorm keep the format more balanced, but they interact with Veil poorly. Say turn 3 or 4, the combo player has 4 mana sources in play (land / lotus petals), they are going to lead with veil, you can't hit it with spell pierce or daze, or if you try (say you have a few copies), they can counter with dark ritual and pay, or cast a second Veil and ignore any counterspells on the stack.
PS - In Legacy, they could do a 3/3 for G with little to no draw back. The Old Grown Dryads are cool, but how much play does Path to Exile see vs. Swords to Plowshares?
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
The problem with these ideas is that it makes no attempt to analyse what "adapting" to veil leads to.
If trying to interact with the opponent (via counters/discard) gets punished too heavily then sure, you can adapt by not interacting. Do you think a meta without interaction is enjoyable? You might like the idea of playing Zoo but the people playing UG Omni or Underworld Breach / TES are going to be even happier.
I have no problem with Veil from a design point of view (as opposed to something like Gitaxian Probe, which I think is an inherently flawed/problematic card) but if the data shows that the meta is slowing devolving into e.g. Glass Cannon decks vs Prison then I think it's an issue
I don't really have any problems with Astrolabe or Oko
This is ALWAYS true
Even if you look at the data and to see "this deck is winning over X percent of its matches or is over Y percent of the metagame, something needs to be adjusted", the assumed argument is
- Having a limited number of (or only 1 singular) viable archetypes is not "fun"
- If more different viable cards/archetypes are viable the top level of competition, that is more "fun"
Or do you think there is an appeal here to something greater than fun? Because it's possible to have a format where every deck and colour has perfectly equal representation: the only legal cards are Grizzly Bear / Glory Seeker / Bloodstone Goblin / Cabal Evangel / Lord of the Unreal. Would this be a good format? No. Would it be fun? No. Are these things related? Yes. If the bears all had "When this creature enters the battlefield, you win the game" would that format also be shit? Yes. Is it a subjective opinion that these formats are unfun and therefore shit? Yes. (Maybe some people enjoy flipping coins). Does that mean we cannot use the idea of "fun" to dismiss the formats for being shit? No. It's possible to have a discussion where we establish what parts of the game we think are fun and what parts aren't and try to balance formats accordingly.
This proposed new format is basically what Wizards did creating Modern. Is Old Growth Dryads any good in Modern?
They clearly left Legacy alone for those of us who want fast but unpowered combo balanced by FoW (and to sleeve up our 4xBrainstorm 4xPonder 2xSnow-Covered Island). They're never going to cut that stuff, it's the reason Legacy still exists.
What can fill green's hole? Instead of G for 3/3, how about a 3-mana permanent that makes 3/3s. That fits greens themes beatdown and ramp. Maybe it could gain 3 life too.
I think the issue with Veil is that it is cutting down on discard, which is the traditional form of interaction - at sorcery speed and 1:1 on cards (or 2:1 on Hymn). With Veil it is 1:1 at worst, and often much better. The most aggressive decks in the format have adopted Veil and that isn't healthy for the format.
Tempo and Blue play many conditional counterspells - Daze, Spell Pierce, The Blasts (Pyro/Hydro/Red/Blue), Spell Snare, Flusterstorm, even Mindbreak Trap - Veil circumvents in a way that discard and 1:1 counterspells do not. Imagine as a Tempo player, you have 2 Daze and 1 Spell Pierce in hand - a Sneak and Show and show player has 5 mana sources and either a) Sneak Attack and Spell Pierce or b) Veil of Summer and Sneak Attack. If they lead with Veil - are you going to throw 3 cards at it so that they tap out and draw a card? Probably not, so both spells will resolve, and as the Tempo player, you probably did the right thing by waiting and not letting them draw the card. Same vs. TES/ANT - their combo cards cost 4/5 mana each, so a lot of the Dazes and Spell Pierces don't become valuable until after those spells are cast. Leading with Veil makes Pierce/Snare/Daze/Flusterstorm/Pyroblast all a lot more worthless and I don't know if it is healthy for Legacy.
Astrolabe allows 5x color off of basic lands, which is questionable - also makes it impossible to read your opponent's hand or force them to commit to mana colors via wasteland or other mana denial (Rishidan Port, Choke, Blood Moon, etc.) - if your opponent has one mana and Astrolabe open and a card in hand, it could be STP, Veil, Pyroblast, Spell Pierce, it's impossible to tell or to limit mana options through which lands are available, because every color is available.
Oko is hard to play against if you play mid-range, tempo, and creature-light control. If you play BUG or RUG or Grixis Delver and your opponent resolves an Oko against an empty board, you can draw your best creature and Oko is going to turn it into a 3/3, eventually trade with it, and live to tell the story. Similarly, playing Tempo against Control with Oko, as a Tempo player, you don't want to overcommit creatures into a sweeper like Terminus or Supreme Verdict, but if Oko resolves vs. 1 creature on board, Oko will win.
Astrolabe is also great Oko fodder, it plays its role in the early game, and then is a 3/3 without summoning sickness once enough land get on board.
I take it you are being sarcastic :) The main decks I see once upon a time in are GW Eldrazi and BG Dark Depths, which aren't traditional green in my opinion. Elves doesn't appear to run Once Upon a Time. I like the card, it seems more suited to land-based decks.
What do you think about a creature for Legacy - Evolved Predator - G 3/4 - If you do not control a non-basic land, sacrifice Evolved Predator. And something like:
Legacy Protector - G1 2/3 Reach - Flash - Protection from Blue - When Legacy Protector enters the battlefield, you may counter target triggered or activated ability.
Last edited by Water_Wizard; 01-27-2020 at 06:36 PM.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
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