All B/R update speculation.

[kusumoto]

There are several ways to do it, but the end result is the same. Hermit Druid taps, and the game ends. He was considered broken in a time before Narcomoebas and Dread Returns and things have only gone more in his favor since then. Hermit Druid, a few combo peices, and the rest of the deck is disruption and non-basic lands. He has pretty good synergy with Cabal Therapy.

A few combo pieces =
3 Narco
1 Redcap
1 Dread Return
1 Mimeoplasm
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Hermit

That's 11 cards, 7 of which you basically never want in your hand. Hermit druid taps and you try to make the game end. It does work well with cabal therapy, but they can still just surgical your dread return in response to that cabal therapy.

The breakfast combo is SO easy to disrupt and he actually makes it easier to disrupt because of summoning sickness. With the current deck you combo as soon as the second guy hits.

All Hermit Druid does is take the breakfast combo from total trash to a good deck. It wouldn't even be a DtB. It would be good, but it would still lose to every piece of disruption ever conceived just like breakfast does now.

[rufus]

...
There are several ways to do it, but the end result is the same. Hermit Druid taps, and the game ends. He was considered broken in a time before Narcomoebas and Dread Returns and things have only gone more in his favor since then. Hermit Druid, a few combo peices, and the rest of the deck is disruption and non-basic lands. He has pretty good synergy with Cabal Therapy.

Alternatively, he's in the sideboard in game 1, and then tries to steal game 2 or 3.

[ThomasDowd]

I'd like to see that also. I am quite fed up with Control beeing 45-55% of the meta.

but is it really? even still what percentage would you like to see it at? I think that number is fine considering that most combo decks I would consider as aggro. I don't really consider combo a pillar I personally think there are just two approaches: beatdown and control, and the combo decks fall into one of those camps. mostly beatdown.

[ThomasDowd]

A few combo pieces =
3 Narco
1 Redcap
1 Dread Return
1 Mimeoplasm
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Hermit

That's 11 cards, 7 of which you basically never want in your hand. Hermit druid taps and you try to make the game end. It does work well with cabal therapy, but they can still just surgical your dread return in response to that cabal therapy.

The breakfast combo is SO easy to disrupt and he actually makes it easier to disrupt because of summoning sickness. With the current deck you combo as soon as the second guy hits.

All Hermit Druid does is take the breakfast combo from total trash to a good deck. It wouldn't even be a DtB. It would be good, but it would still lose to every piece of disruption ever conceived just like breakfast does now.

If you untap with hermit druid you draw your entire deck and win, how is that not broken? he goes in things other than breakfast as well, any graveyard based combo basically.

[frenchy-man]

Concerning survival :

Absolutely, the card is not broken. Strong but not broken. It was played in several decks before its ban, decks that were not dtb.
They edited vengevine and the a new survival appeared. A very powerful deck. So powerful that the metagame has had to shift or else was outdated (like merfolk).
In Spain and France, check out for the results at that time, the deck was dominating, but just like is doing TT currently...
But let's presume the deck was still too strong. The problem is VV is the deck, we all agree on this don't we ? ('cause as I said other survival decks had been played for years).
They edited surgical extraction. THE answer to vengevine. Available to everyone. A card that is also good in many other MUs. Isn't it enough to deal with the deck ?

What's more, many other decks got pretty cards since then... Delver, faithless, past in flammes, thalia... I think that many DTB could actually beat the UG survival that lay thought to be to powerful.

Peace

frenchy

[Vacrix]

There's always the potential to board out those 11 cards and then you can completely transform in the post-board after your opponent boards in a bunch of graveyard hate that will be completely dead against you. It could even be a transformation post-board strategy after game 1 when your opponent doesn't expect it (and then I guess you could transform back in game 3 if you lost game 1 to dodge hate and make them play dead cards).

[frenchy-man]

I do agree with you, but you'll probably agree with me on the fact that the natural order plan is a bit outdated in the current meta don't you ? (loooots of stifle/waste/burn to kill little dudes/spell pierce/daze/...)

[Vacrix]

I don't think it would transform into a Natural Order strategy. It really depends on the rest of the maindeck and the colors (UG being given). Likely it would transform either into aggro with some additional removal/countermagic or a more control oriented approach with a broader countersuite (especially good if you maindeck Jace), removal, and sweepers. Transformations are underplayed often but this one in particular has a mere 11 cards which means you still have 4 slots for another matchup (likely countermagic for combo).

[kusumoto]

I don't think it would transform into a Natural Order strategy. It really depends on the rest of the maindeck and the colors (UG being given). Likely it would transform either into aggro with some additional removal/countermagic or a more control oriented approach with a broader countersuite (especially good if you maindeck Jace), removal, and sweepers. Transformations are underplayed often but this one in particular has a mere 11 cards which means you still have 4 slots for another matchup (likely countermagic for combo).

Perhaps people here haven't played breakfast or are remembering it with some kind of illogical nostalgia.

The power of the deck is largely based on it's speed. You run a low land count with lots of tutoring, manipulation, and disruption. If you're doing silly things like maindecking Jace, you're going to need a bunch of lands (all nonbasics btw) that will slow you down. Being slow with things like Jace and GSZ increases your odds of drawing all those dead cards that you now need to get rid of to win. It also gives your opponent more time to disrupt you. Remember EVERYTHING disrupts you.

I'm open to hearing what non breakfast strategy could possibly benefit from the 2cc 1/1 summoning sick green guy.

Transformational boards aren't played much because they're bad.

[Hanni]

Breakfast? I thought they were talking about Survival Vengevine... which could easily board into some Maverick-style deck with Survivals postboard...

[kusumoto]

Breakfast? I thought they were talking about Survival Vengevine... which could easily board into some Maverick-style deck with Survivals postboard...

No I was talking about Hermit Druid coming off the list not survival.

Survival is a whole different story.

[dragonwisdom]

survival can come off the banned list if they ban ooze combo.

vengvine survival is fair in today's meta.

[JamieW89]

I can see SotF staying banned and SnT being banned eventually due to the design limitations. This is a shame in SotF's case (even with vengevine it never dominated in Europe, and now we have Surgical) but I couldn't care less about SnT and its derpy decks.

I'd also like to see Black Vise, Earthcraft, Land tax and Mind Twist coming off. Cards like Mind's Desire are probably safe, but I don't think they'll even consider it. In fact, I somewhat wonder if they'll even unban much at all any time soon since they could have done it earlier if they wanted.

[Tacosnape]

WotC probably printed Grislebrand so they could have a good excuse to ban Show and Tell.

I think Show and Tell will eventually get banned due the nature of card though. Sooner or later.

Griselbrand was a flavor fix. Until now, there weren't good demons in magic. There were niche demons that could do some serious damage, but there wasn't just "The Demon." Not one that inspired fear into the hearts of players. Griselbrand does that. Doesn't mean Griselbrand was a good idea (Not being able to stop that trigger from getting to the stack is bad for everything ever), but I see the flavor logic.

But it does seem like you're right about Show and Tell. It does fundamentally unfair things, and the more they print cards that were never meant to be hardcasted (Emrakul, Griselbrand, Progenitus, etc.), the more unfair Show and Tell gets. Non Show and Tell-type decks can't run these cards, and therefore can't hang with the unfairness of the spell.

Good to know that now it isn't Delvers and GSZeniths any longer.... :/

The three aren't comparable in their power levels.

Now, don't get me wrong, Delver's pretty amazing, but he has drawbacks, and there's a billion ways to answer him. Red eats Delvers for breakfast. Anything can Gut Shot or Dismember him. White has tons of removal for him. As does Black. The point is, while he's efficient, he can be stopped. Quite easily. You also have to play him in a deck that can regularly flip him. I won't argue what the magic number is, but simply put, the less instants/sorceries you run, the less amazing he is.

Green Sun's Zenith is half of what Survival players got to be appeased with the banning of Survival (Fauna Shaman being the other half.) It's very versatile, very useful, but let's compare it to Show and Tell for a second: Show and Tell, for three mana, is going to win the game unless your opponent has a narrow answer set. Green Sun's Zenith, for that same three mana, isn't going to get you much better than a Qasali Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze. Now, obviously, you have to have the Show and Tell target in your hand and the opponent has to not have something equally horrifying, but this is still a huge discrepancy in potential power level.

Delver and GSZ are also answerable or beatable by every color in many feasible ways. With Show and Tell, this isn't the case. Green and White have very, very little to deal with it, and Red doesn't have much outside of REB/Pyro.

[Malakai]

I wasn't positing a list for discussion. Literally no card on that list will come off. A few can, but none of them will.

The strength of Hermit Druid isn't in a deck like breakfast; why would you even think that? Instead, think of Stoneblade, except instead of a Batterskull they win the game.

Earthcraft makes Enchantress consistently win on turn 3, through multiple pieces of hate. I know this because I played in a tournament where you could choose a non-power 10 card to come off the banned list for your Legacy deck. Everyone thought storm would just win because of Yawg Will, but the me and the other three undefeated enchantress players who are now a couple dual lands richer would beg to differ.

The best Survival deck crushed every other deck in the format. It was as fast as storm, and as resilient as Maverick. Just because you didn't play against people with the correct list does not mean it was safe. Had they not banned it when they did you would have seen Hulk-Flash all over again. Survival is fundamentally broken, and will only become more so as more cards are added. Stop lying to yourself and just admit you miss playing in an environment with Survival.

[kusumoto]

I wasn't positing a list for discussion. Literally no card on that list will come off. A few can, but none of them will.

The strength of Hermit Druid isn't in a deck like breakfast; why would you even think that? Instead, think of Stoneblade, except instead of a Batterskull they win the game.

Earthcraft makes Enchantress consistently win on turn 3, through multiple pieces of hate. I know this because I played in a tournament where you could choose a non-power 10 card to come off the banned list for your Legacy deck. Everyone thought storm would just win because of Yawg Will, but the me and the other three undefeated enchantress players who are now a couple dual lands richer would beg to differ.

The best Survival deck crushed every other deck in the format. It was as fast as storm, and as resilient as Maverick. Just because you didn't play against people with the correct list does not mean it was safe. Had they not banned it when they did you would have seen Hulk-Flash all over again. Survival is fundamentally broken, and will only become more so as more cards are added. Stop lying to yourself and just admit you miss playing in an environment with Survival.

What are you even talking about with hermit? You dont just magically win when your library goes to your graveyard. How are you winning exactly? What is with people thinking druid just magically wins the game without even beginning to consider what you have to do with a deck to make that happen?

[menace13]

The three aren't comparable in their power levels.

Now, don't get me wrong, Delver's pretty amazing, but he has drawbacks, and there's a billion ways to answer him. Red eats Delvers for breakfast. Anything can Gut Shot or Dismember him. White has tons of removal for him. As does Black. The point is, while he's efficient, he can be stopped. Quite easily. You also have to play him in a deck that can regularly flip him. I won't argue what the magic number is, but simply put, the less instants/sorceries you run, the less amazing he is.

Green Sun's Zenith is half of what Survival players got to be appeased with the banning of Survival (Fauna Shaman being the other half.) It's very versatile, very useful, but let's compare it to Show and Tell for a second: Show and Tell, for three mana, is going to win the game unless your opponent has a narrow answer set. Green Sun's Zenith, for that same three mana, isn't going to get you much better than a Qasali Pridemage or Scavenging Ooze. Now, obviously, you have to have the Show and Tell target in your hand and the opponent has to not have something equally horrifying, but this is still a huge discrepancy in potential power level.

Delver and GSZ are also answerable or beatable by every color in many feasible ways. With Show and Tell, this isn't the case. Green and White have very, very little to deal with it, and Red doesn't have much outside of REB/Pyro.

Concerned with a card that doesn't show up anywhere near the amount of the other decks?
The 3 different SnT decks compared to 8 of the same Delver and Maverick decks in every top 16. They are the for the most part still the top 2 decks to beat.
Delver is the best 1 drop of all time. It beats Nacatl. In a tempo deck it plays extremely well with Daze and Wasteland(doesnt have land limits like Nacatl), it flys, it's blue, and it shows up everywhere at the top.

Grisslebrand improved Sneak Show and may give rise to Next Level Reanimator decks, but there isn't really any good reasons statistically to begin the ban SnT Thread. I am more concerned with RUG and Maverick swallowing half the prize spots.

[dontbiteitholmes]

No I was talking about Hermit Druid coming off the list not survival.

Survival is a whole different story.

I was working on a deck with Hermit Druid right before 1.5 turned into Legacy and it got banned. You have to run 4 Druids and around 7-8 other cards to make the combo, maybe 18 lands which is around 30 cards. Then I'd run Tutors or some mix of Tutors and Brainstorm (depends what color I'd go with), and the entire rest of the list would be protection, so 20-26 protection spells and you only need to keep a 1/1 on the board for a turn to win most of the time.

[kusumoto]

I think anybody worried about druid should make a list and test it aginst top decks. I think you will be surprised.

[menace13]

I was working on a deck with Hermit Druid right before 1.5 turned into Legacy and it got banned. You have to run 4 Druids and around 7-8 other cards to make the combo, maybe 18 lands which is around 30 cards. Then I'd run Tutors or some mix of Tutors and Brainstorm (depends what color I'd go with), and the entire rest of the list would be protection, so 20-26 protection spells and you only need to keep a 1/1 on the board for a turn to win most of the time.

The speed of Hermit is faster than Breakfast since the requirements are a single card. Doesn't need to waste slots with Shuko, Vial or Nomads freeing up more space for disruption. Has a billion direct tutors(Worldly, GSZ). Elvish Spirit Guide maybe Petals for accel lowering land count to under 18. The deck is good. It is really good. is it the best deck ever? No. But it isn't something to take lightly. It will win a lot.