Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
This. Show and Tell -> Griselbrand is no more combo than Dark Ritual -> Hypnotic Specter.Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I guess assembling two specific cards in hand is no longer considered a combo?
Also, Leyline doesn't automatically give SNT the win vs decks with discard. First of all, as with all Leylines, it can be incredibly inconsistent. Do you mulligan into a Leyline if you don't see one? Do you go down to 5? Mull'ing good hands because they don't have a Leyline can lower consistency, and keeping hands without one means you may have some dead draws later. What if you mull to 4 to find a Leyline, keeping a shitty hand, and get run over by their aggro?
That's also assuming that the player with discard has no enchantment removal, or other ways to interact.
Except, SNT doesn't do anything without one of the other combo pieces in hand, where Ritual would. Besides, that example is pretty awful. No one runs Rituals to drop crap like Specter these days.This. Show and Tell -> Griselbrand is no more combo than Dark Ritual -> Hypnotic Specter.
I was not complaining that I can not play Serra anymore. My point was to show it was my favorite card but it is no longer playable and I am ok with that bc, I like having so many choices. The key is I can STILL play it even if it isn't the best.
Show and Tell is perfectly fine right now. Almost every color has many ways to attack the deck in all its variations. From lots of discard, Knights, to things like REB, the format has so many answers.
I do love that people complain that brainstorm is everywhere, yet why don't they complain about duals and fetch lands. They are equally pervasive and fall under the same standards.
Also brainstorm isn't my pet card. I haven't played it in sanctioned play in over two years. Just FYI.
Seth
…no matter how much you think you love somebody, you’ll step back when the pool of their blood edges up too close.
A: It's not 2 specific cards. It's 8 cards that can each work with 8 other cards. We're not talking about chaining 10 specific spells together while being susceptible to counters, discard, thalia, teeg, etc. along the way. It's not a "2-card combo" like servant where you have to keep a fragile creature and a specific artifact on the battlefield for a turn and can still lose to a vialed in grunt. It's not even reanimator, where you not only have to get the creature into your graveyard, but you must also resolve another spell in the face of counters, discard, thalia, and surgical extraction.
This is a one-spell game-ender. That's not a combo. It's one spell that has a drawback of you have to have one of 8 separate cards in your deck in your hand as well. Not only that, but it's completely herp-derp. I lost a game to a guy who told me I couldn't target emrakul with surgical extraction in response to its graveyard trigger because it had protection against colored spells.... on turn 3.... without him casting a single cantrip....
Why are you okay with this???
No, the turn 2 or 3 griselbrand and/or hasty emrakul that you can't even try to disrupt does.Also, Leyline doesn't automatically give SNT the win vs decks with discard.
It can be inconsistent, but who cares? Against a deck running black, who has put in anywhere from 8-12 targeted discard into their deck in order to get a minute chance to beat you, you have all the time in the world because of their 12 dead draws vs. your 3 dead leyline draws. Also you have brainstorm (ahem), ponder, and intuition to help safeguard against it. Please give me a break already.First of all, as with all Leylines, it can be incredibly inconsistent. Do you mulligan into a Leyline if you don't see one? Do you go down to 5? Mull'ing good hands because they don't have a Leyline can lower consistency, and keeping hands without one means you may have some dead draws later.
Last time I checked junk was not an aggro deck. Decks that run Duress, IOK, Thoughtseize, and Hymn are not usually part of aggro decks. Aggro decks want to win by turn 3 or 4, and spending the first couple of turns trying to disrupt you and hoping you don't naturally draw into any one of your 8 win conditions isn't really a good strategy. But since you're better than 99% of all legacy players, as you stated previously, maybe you could show us a list that has black, no blue, and won't fold to a leyline?What if you mull to 4 to find a Leyline, keeping a shitty hand, and get run over by their aggro?
False. Ritual doesn't do anything without another card to accelerate into, either. It's exactly the same as a ritual except if you don't counter the ritual you can still counter the next card. Also switch the OP's example with dark ritual into Liliana or hymn followed by a duress instead of just sidestepping the point.
Except, SNT doesn't do anything without one of the other combo pieces in hand, where Ritual would. Besides, that example is pretty awful. No one runs Rituals to drop crap like Specter these days.
You don't need Ritual to cast Hypnotic Specter. You don't need Hypnotic Specter to take use of your Ritual. The ultimate goal of your deck isn't resolving a Ritual and casting a Specter, you're not necessarily in a losing position if either gets countered and you're not necessarily in a clearly winning position when both resolve.
Sure, Griselbrand may indeed be more powerful than Progenitus. It doesn't matter, SnT players won the game anyway when they had their SnT resolve and their fatty unanswered for a couple of turns, and they still do. Okay, I admit that Griselbrand works well with Sneak Attack while Progenitus wasn't the hottest tech, but if that's the difference which makes SneakShow decks too powerful these days and barely viable before, shouldn't we discussing the banning of Sneak Attack instead of banning Show and Tell? Show and Tell is more powerful, but the decks featuring it aren't that much more powerful.
Green was competitive without Green Sun's Zenith and would still be competitive without it. Card manipulation is not in green's slice of the color pie, green doesn't need card manipulation and green shouldn't have it. And GSZ is basically just better than Mystical Tutor was for spells - it cantrips and removes color requirements in addition to what Mystical Tutor does.
The land of waiting where the dead sit in their thoughts' shadow, by no moon lit.
Hanni, do you splash blue in your Junk deck? Be real with us.
For the record, I don't support the unbanning of Yawgmoth's Bargain. My comparison was supposed to objectively underscore how ridiculous a card Griselbrand is. It's a Yawgmoth's Bargain that can also win by itself. Until drawing cards is bad, Griselbrand will be bonkers.
Totally wrong. One pair wins you the game. The other gets Plowed, Bolted, Forked Bolted, or doesn't even matter over the course of the game. One is broken; the other is barely playable.
Totally wrong. It is DRAMATICALLY more powerful than before. I honestly don't know how any player who had even seen the deck could make such a claim.
Wrong again. In the past, you could play narrow answers like Fleshbag Marauder to one-for-one them off the Show and Tell. You could run Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict or Tariff or Retribution of the Meek. (I have played all of those at times in the past.) You could play Curfew. You could conceivably race Progenitus. Griselbrand --> FOW trumps most removal in this format, and stuff like Oblivion Ring or Karakas doesn't do much, since they still get to draw 7 cards. Even if the card gets removed, it STILL draws 7 cards. So the Sneak and Show player gets to stack his hand for the next turn and probably use Force of Will to free-roll you. There are not many ways you're going to be able win from such a situation.
...right, and Belcher probably isn't a combo either. It's one spell that has a drawback of you have to have six of 49 separate cards in your deck in your hand as well.
Also, you can't ban a card because a single person someone on the Internet played against used that card and didn't know the rules. It doesn't make even the slightest sense.
Why wouldn't we be okay with a completely fair card enabling some completely fair decks?
You have at least 1-2 turns to disrupt it even when you're otd. Besides, the turn 1 lethal Tendrils by Spanish Inquisition is something that doesn't see almost any play because it's so easy to disrupt - why can't you disrupt this much slower combo?No, the turn 2 or 3 griselbrand and/or hasty emrakul that you can't even try to disrupt does.
If a combo deck doesn't work consistently, it doesn't work. If an aggro deck topdecks 2-3 dead draws per game against a combo deck that doesn't work, the aggro deck still wins.It can be inconsistent, but who cares? Against a deck running black, who has put in anywhere from 8-12 targeted discard into their deck in order to get a minute chance to beat you, you have all the time in the world because of their 12 dead draws vs. your 3 dead leyline draws. Also you have brainstorm (ahem), ponder, and intuition to help safeguard against it. Please give me a break already.
Why on earth should there be a deck without disruption that beats combo? WHY? Yeah, you should ban all the burn spells because a 40 creature removal spells.dec can't beat it. Ban Cavern of Souls and AEther Vial because counterspells don't do much against them. Also ban all counterspells because they counter spells and why not ban creature removal spells too, because they also happen to do the only thing they are designed to do? Combo decks beat decks that don't have enough disruption. That's their purpose, and that's the only thing they can do well.Last time I checked junk was not an aggro deck. Decks that run Duress, IOK, Thoughtseize, and Hymn are not usually part of aggro decks. Aggro decks want to win by turn 3 or 4, and spending the first couple of turns trying to disrupt you and hoping you don't naturally draw into any one of your 8 win conditions isn't really a good strategy. But since you're better than 99% of all legacy players, as you stated previously, maybe you could show us a list that has black, no blue, and won't fold to a leyline?
Griselbrand is legendary. Show and Tell is two-sided. You don't even have to pay mana in order to counter that deck.
The land of waiting where the dead sit in their thoughts' shadow, by no moon lit.
Charbelcher requires severe sacrifices in deck construction and flexibility. Griselbrand, by contrast, can fit into any deck that cheats things into play and improve it. If you're dumping things into play with Show and Tell or Eureka or Hypergenesis, you now have a card that refills your hand for another round of dumping stuff into play. Even if Griselbrand just sits back as if he had defender, he's still effectively ended that game. The card performs well in Reanimator and Dredge. It enables a Tendrils kill in the Griselbargain deck. It's a win condition on its own. If the card didn't have lifelink, it would be easier to combat. As is, it's just insane.
Are you for real? Their deck plays Force of Will and Brainstorm and Misdirection and Spell Pierce. And usually Leyline out of the board. And if you lose the die roll, you can assume you have 1 less turn. Why is it hard to see that this is a problem?
SHOW OF HANDS: Who wants a format dominated by Show and Tell decks vs. control decks with Delver? Because if we aren't there now, we'll be there soon.
Force of will, misdirection, spell pierce, and Leylines in the board. Also brainstorm hiding cards.
now you're just being silly. come on. I suppose you mean the karakas argument, as if they can't draw 14 in response to you bouncing it.
If a combo deck doesn't work consistently, it doesn't work. If an aggro deck topdecks 2-3 dead draws per game against a combo deck that doesn't work, the aggro deck still wins.
Why on earth should there be a deck without disruption that beats combo? WHY? Yeah, you should ban all the burn spells because a 40 creature removal spells.dec can't beat it. Ban Cavern of Souls and AEther Vial because counterspells don't do much against them. Also ban all counterspells because they counter spells and why not ban creature removal spells too, because they also happen to do the only thing they are designed to do? Combo decks beat decks that don't have enough disruption. That's their purpose, and that's the only thing they can do well.
Griselbrand is legendary. Show and Tell is two-sided. You don't even have to pay mana in order to counter that deck.
This whole thread needs to go eat bath salts.
Holy shit the quality of posts in this thread has taken a turn for the stupid. I'm gonna do a quick response to a few things, and then I'm done feeding the trolls.
Sure it is. It's combo enabler + creature. Running 8 enablers and 8 creatures doesn't change the fact that you need 2 specific cards (enabler + creature). That's, ding ding ding, a combo. Thanks for playing.It's not 2 specific cards.
Oh, yes, I forgot. The SNT player is always going to have turn 2 Griselbrand after they mulligan'ed to 5 for Leyline. Ooops, my bad.No, the turn 2 or 3 griselbrand and/or hasty emrakul that you can't even try to disrupt does.
They don't win with aggro? Could have fooled me.Last time I checked junk was not an aggro deck. Decks that run Duress, IOK, Thoughtseize, and Hymn are not usually part of aggro decks.
Ah, now I see what you meant by that last one. So by your definition, the only aggro decks in the format are... Goblins, Zoo, and Affinity?Aggro decks want to win by turn 3 or 4
There's a difference between being able to use Dark Ritual to cast the other 30+ spells in your deck, and using Show and Tell to put into play one of the 8 creatures you run. I didn't sidestep anything, you missed my point, again. Which doesn't matter because you didn't even acknowledge the other part I said... you know, the part where I said casting a Ritual into a Specter (or insert fair card here) was pretty stupid in the first place.False. Ritual doesn't do anything without another card to accelerate into, either. It's exactly the same as a ritual except if you don't counter the ritual you can still counter the next card. Also switch the OP's example with dark ritual into Liliana or hymn followed by a duress instead of just sidestepping the point.
Where the fuck are you trolls getting this shit from? Seriously.Hanni, do you splash blue in your Junk deck? Be real with us.
Totally wrong. One pair is playable without the other. The other pair requires that you have both of them to be useful. One is a "combo" that may win you the game, the other one are two individual pieces that have no reliance upon one another. The example presented by Majikal was pretty bad.Totally wrong. One pair wins you the game. The other gets Plowed, Bolted, Forked Bolted, or doesn't even matter over the course of the game. One is broken; the other is barely playable.
lolSHOW OF HANDS: Who wants a format dominated by Show and Tell decks vs. control decks with Delver? Because if we aren't there now, we'll be there soon.
Oh and lastly,
And YOU were accusing ME of logical fallacy's?But since you're better than 99% of all legacy players, as you stated previously, maybe you could show us a list that has black, no blue, and won't fold to a leyline?
Okay, have fun guys.
Just poking fun at you, Hanni, considering your past as someone who never leaves home without Brainstorm. I mean, you did come into the Aggro Loam thread several times suggesting that the deck splash blue.
No. In fact, I forgot about whole Karakas while making that argument.
They can't draw 14 in response to two Griselbrands committing suicide after seeing each other on different sides of the battlefield. There also is no way they can counter it. If ever Show and Tell becomes dominant enough to dedicate sideboard slots for, put in 4 Griselbrands and watch the opponent's reaction as he sets up a Show and Tell with tons of counter backups and it ends up doing nothing.
The land of waiting where the dead sit in their thoughts' shadow, by no moon lit.
And YOU were accusing ME of logical fallacy's?
Okay, have fun guys.
I asked you for some shred of proof of a nonblue answer to the deck that didn't also fold to a turn 0 leyline. To which you responded with nothing.
In the adapting thread, you offered pithing needle as a card that "hoses" SNT.
Yes, turn 1 needle naming Sneak
Turn 2 needle naming Griselbrand
untap and your opponent just SNT emrakul while you've been durdling the past 2 turns.
It's not one card or the other that is the problem. It's all 16 cards at once in a blue shell with brainstorm and and instant demonic tutor for 2U. Why can't you see it? I don't get it.
And please stop acting like it's hard for SNT to win on turn 2-3 even after a mulligan to 5, because it's not. I've watched it happen. Please try playing a nonblue deck against SNT for a few games and see the consistency.
It really isn't hard for any deck with the nuts against a favorable match-up to win on turn two or three with the right combination of cards. What is illogical is assuming that it will happen more often than it won't, because if you're mulling to five and Showing in an Emrakul with a hand saturated with nothing, then you're far from in the clear.
^fixed that for you
Also you don't need the nuts. You just need something like leyline, brainstorm, land/petal, 2 other cards.
Then you have 2-3 turns to dig for your answer while your opponent is sitting there with 3 discard spells and a pithing needle in hand.
Again, just stop it. You're obviously not playing against the deck at any regular pace. Even in the SNT thread they are acknowledging how broken it is. Some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing, so I'm officially done with this on my end. I hope they do ban one of the problem cards of that deck. If it's SNT, then so be it.
I'm convinced over half of you don't even play legacy irl and are basing your arguments off of a few 'trice games.
No?
Duals aren-t pushing a single color more than others, neither are they hosing a single color (black) more than others. Duals are 10 different cards, and them being banned would not shorten the banned list for sure, neither would make us play more different cards. Duals aren-t pushing any strategy anywhere, if anything they allow us to play multicolor more efficiently, at the cost of being more vulnerable to wasteland.
And finally, if Brainstorm is a poster card of Legacy, Duals are THE poster cards for legacy. When i started playing, brainstorm wasn-t a card, and duals were already everywhere, from balance decks to Kird Ape aggro ( i started with black bordered revised, the first italian edition). Cards like Lotus and Moxen or Sol Ring were already banned or limited, but duals were the universal cards that everyone could play in their decks and the baseline of the trading economy of magic.
As much as I dislike S&T as well as Delver, I'd rather they not be banned. However, as others have stated, these cards (mostly S&T) are not easy to adapt to, pretty much mandating "Go Blue or Go Home". I just wish Wizards would throw Legacy some bones by expanding the abilities of other colors. That black discard spell that hits an opponent for how many cards they drew this turn sounds okay (except I'd have it only be usable when an opponent drew 3+ so stuff doesn't become terribly unfun for non-BSing players) and I'm a big advocate of bleeding countermagic into red and white. I'd really like to see the following:
AW HELL NO
2RR
Instant
You may remove a red card in your hand instead of paying AW HELL NO's mana cost.
AW HELL NO can't be the target of blue spells or abilities.
Counter target Instant or Sorcery.
CAN'T TOUCH THIS
WWW
Instant
You may remove a white card in your hand from the game instead of paying CAN'T TOUCH THIS's mana cost.
Counter any number of spells that target you.
Give other colors a means to interact with the stack. Bleed library manipulation and card selection into other colors through decent staples with cycling and scry. And for the love of God, stop printing outstanding Blue cards in every type and enough with the dumb fatties that don't have Phage clauses.
In my defense, you don't hear me bitch about Dredge, Reanimator, Belcher, Painter Stone, or 95% of the combo decks that have been around. I don't actually advocate for the banning of decks. I advocate for the banning of specific cards.
My top argument for the banning Show and Tell is this - Regardless of how you feel about the situation now, the card will never ever become less prominent barring the printing of a versatile hoser that wrecks it. Every Emrakul/Progenitus/Griselbrand/Giant Space Monster of Doom that ever gets printed? Show and Tell gets another option. Every bizarre artifact or enchantment that somehow ends the game upon resolving? Show and Tell gets another option. Show and Tell, indisputably, is only going to get better.
I won't lie. I've called for the banning of a few cards. There's still some Legacy staples to this day that, while I wouldn't directly call for the banning of, I wouldn't care if I saw gone for one reason or another. Lion's Eye Diamond is involved in almost every turn one win in Legacy, and I feel is always under a watch. But the other one, to my defense, isn't really a combo card. It's Sensei's Divining Top. I think the card just makes magic worse on the whole.
But Show and Tell is a cancer. And even if you disagree with it needing to be banned now (Which I clearly think it does, but I respect your opinion otherwise), you can't argue that with time it will almost certainly be too big of a problem to ignore.
Also, I still wouldn't mind seeing it banned and reprinted as a 3U spell that could drop Planeswalkers.
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