All B/R update speculation.

[Star|Scream]

Oh this is getting good....

[nedleeds]

What is the core argument for banning? Is it ubiquity at the last SCG event top 8, I got news for you there was one less FoW than there was Brainstorm, so we have to ban that also?

Does FoW let you keep an otherwise unkeepable hand. No. Does FoW get played in every combo deck. No. Is FoW a fair answer to targeted discard. Yes. Is FoW a good top deck when you are losing. No.

But regardless ubiquity isn't the only argument. It's raw power level. I'd say Force of Will is a card that is close being ban worthy but can't affect board state, requires a reasonably heavy commitment to blue, and is most of the time draining to an important resource (your hand). Of course having brainstorm can gas up your hand again for the low low cost of U and sending back a sandbagged land and fetching.

Limiting design space? Uh there are decks that don't play brainstorm right.

Sure ... you can bring a chalice deck to a GP. But good luck navigating 10+ rounds without the ability to fix bad opening hands. Brainstorm is essentially a free mulligan in your opener. When teamed up with a fetch its card selection / quality / drawing that is unmatched.

There are a lot of cards that can be abused.

Sure. They are mostly on the banned list.

DCI has used a variety of reasons in the past. Of course you won't directly refute my core point ... is it, or is it not more powerful (ubiquitous, design space limiting, etc.) than several cards currently on the banned list?

[nedleeds]

Cabal Therapy is the biggest skill tester and one of best cards in the format for many reasons. It is fantastic in the hands of someone knowledgeable and mediocre to bad when someone mediocre uses it. This is how games should work, they should be skill dependant, no card is more skill dependant in this format then Cabal Therapy. If you want to take out our format's hardest to use card then I think you should be playing a different format with easier to use cards.

Your argument applies to 50 different cards. The argument is about whether Brainstorm is on the power level or greater as the rest of the banned list. All of you stop stroking your wanna be semi-pro magic ego thinking you are some great practitioners of brainstorm-fu.

Also ... two skill intensives in one day! More than I ever could have hoped for

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Of course you won't directly refute my core point ... is it, or is it not more powerful (ubiquitous, design space limiting, etc.) than several cards currently on the banned list?

No I won't refute what is now your core point. There are cards on the banned list that I think are worse than brainstorm. But I don't see how that equates to brainstorm being banned. I think there are cards on the banned list that are worse than a lot of cards that see play but that doesn't mean that all those cards being played should be banned. You can move the goal posts where ever you like, but I still hold the position that banning Brainstorm would be bad for the format.

[xfxf]

You should be able to see beyond the Brainstorm's power level and try to imagine a format without one. Would you still play RUG? What about the control decks you are still trying to make work (BUG, UW Miracle etc.)? So OK, Vial decks are back in the format. Without Brainstorm will you play Griselbrand decks or Storm to punish the fair decks? Best fixers left in the format are Green Sun's Zenith and Goblin Ring Leader.

Still you can have a nice diversity with multiple mono colored decks. I suppose I would play straight up burn since I'd rather play a very redundant deck when variance is the new thing. Is there still a reason (or a way) to play non-linear decks or anything blue?

I'd make a similar argument about the necessity of Delver in the format. I'm not sure if it would be fun for anybody to play in a format without Delver (read RUG) but with Brainstorm (read Storm and Sneak&Show).

[Snap_Keep]

Your argument applies to 50 different cards. The argument is about whether Brainstorm is on the power level or greater as the rest of the banned list. All of you stop stroking your wanna be semi-pro magic ego thinking you are some great practitioners of brainstorm-fu.

Also ... two skill intensives in one day! More than I ever could have hoped for

Huh, you're not even trying, too bad.

I'm not a master of brainstorm-fu. Are you saying Brainstorm is easier to use then Cabal Therapy? I don't get why you want to make fun of me calling me "a wanna be semi pro" for liking cards that are challenging and rewarding to use optimally

I think most people who play magic like the challenge of trying to use cards to their fullest capability, Brainstorm is the epitome of a challenging spell to use optimally. Most people enjoy that challenge, I think you're the outlier.

[Gheizen64]

Brainstorm being a skill-tester is one of the biggest lies of this format. You know what's ten thousand times more skill intensive? Portent, Top, Ponder. Just by being sorceries, they involve a much more complex decision tree.
Brainstorm isn't the most skill intensive card of the format. Brainstorm require you to cast it when u have a fetch open. Put the two worst card on top, shuffle. Top require one million more decisions, especially in early game by virtue of having a cost for seeing the top 3. Being an instant doesn't make a card more skill intensive, it's the opposite, since you can almost always play it at the right moment, whereas you couldn't with a sorcery and you'd have to ponder the opportunity cost of tapping mana on your turn.

Force of will require a big investment to blue, is a pretty bad topdeck, and is bad in some matchups where you don't want card-disadvantage whereas card advantage/selection is never bad. Also force of will existing mean Belcher and other similar non-protected combo decks sucks.

Fetchlands are 10 cards, and if you think that banning 10 cards when u could ban 1 to get a similar effect (less consistent manabases) is a good idea, well you have your opinion man, but that's not mine.
Duals ARE Legacy.

Also, unban Tax, Twist, Vise, Jar and Earthcraft plz.

You should be able to see beyond the Brainstorm's power level and try to imagine a format without one. Would you still play RUG? What about the control decks you are still trying to make work (BUG, UW Miracle etc.)? So OK, Vial decks are back in the format. Without Brainstorm will you play Griselbrand decks or Storm to punish the fair decks? Best fixers left in the format are Green Sun's Zenith and Goblin Ring Leader.

Still you can have a nice diversity with multiple mono colored decks. I suppose I would play straight up burn since I'd rather play a very redundant deck when variance is the new thing. Is there still a reason (or a way) to play non-linear decks or anything blue?

I'd make a similar argument about the necessity of Delver in the format. I'm not sure if it would be fun for anybody to play in a format without Delver (read RUG) but with Brainstorm (read Storm and Sneak&Show).

Best fixers in a world without BS would probably be Ponder, Top and GSZ. Or just play more card drawing, since BS wasn't exactly a T1 play before.

[Snap_Keep]

To me, and many others, Brainstorm is Legacy.

At a certain point it's a matter of opinion and nobody is going to change the other persons mind. People always laugh at the suggestion that banning Brainstorm would drive away many of the format's players, but if you look at people's responses (not just here, on other forums and IRL) it seems like many people would quit.

Can you imagine the backlash that would come with banning Duals, Fetches or FoW? I think it's naive to not expect, or to not care about, a similar backlash from axing Brainstorm.

[nedleeds]

You should be able to see beyond the Brainstorm's power level and try to imagine a format without one. Would you still play RUG?

I'm imagining non-chalice decks with 60 cards of deck building space instead of 56.

If I wanted to build a red, green, blue aggro deck I would. I'd just sit down and put it together. I'd think it would share many of the same cards. Land base might get a little bit more fair, and I'm just speculating but with all the U cantrips I still think you could play a low curve aggro deck like tempo-thresh on 14-16 mana producing lands.

What about the control decks you are still trying to make work (BUG, UW Miracle etc.)? Without Brainstorm will you play Griselbrand decks or Storm to punish the fair decks?

Again all the decks you list all play Brainstorm the combo decks ... sneak show decks, Reanimator etc., everydeck is playing Brainstorm ... so banning it (which I'm not 100% advocating) would mean all the 8 decks in the top 8 (or 26 of 32 at a GP, or 7 of 8 at Bazaar of Moxen) would have to change. They'd all likely get a little less consistent and thus make room for some non blue decks. Discard would become a bit more viable.

Best fixers left in the format are Green Sun's Zenith and Goblin Ring Leader.

Not sure what you are getting at with this comparison. Those cards aren't in the same world as brainstorm. GSZ is a good search card and ... uh GRL is a 4 mana 2/2 in a world where Recruiter is still banned.

Still you can have a nice diversity with multiple mono colored decks. I suppose I would play straight up burn since I'd rather play a very redundant deck when variance is the new thing. Is there still a reason (or a way) to play non-linear decks or anything blue?

You should play what you want to play. Burn is an option. It packs pretty solidly to men with weapons, runs out of gas. In my opinion it seems like a terribly boring deck to play. Removing Brainstorm wouldn't just completely turn the game into a game of Duel Masters.

Force of Will, Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Show and Tell, Daze, every Merfolk Lord, Misdirection, Divert, Metamorph, Tezzeret, Mana Leak, Counterspell, Negate, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, High Tide, Stifle, Fact or Fiction, Sower of Temptation, Spellstutter Sprite, Ninja of the Deep Hours ...

Blue has some decent cards left to pick from.

[nedleeds]

Can you imagine the backlash that would come with banning Duals, Fetches or FoW? I think it's naive to not expect, or to not care about, a similar backlash from axing Brainstorm.

Duals are legacy.

That comparison is complete horseshit because Brainstorm is $.25.

[rxavage]

Also, unban Tax, Twist, Vise, Jar and Earthcraft plz.

I'd be more than happy with this. I'd love to play grim/memories.

That's complete horseshit because Brainstorm is $.25.

The truth has been exposed, it's all about money for Mr. Leeds

[nedleeds]

Huh, you're not even trying, too bad.

I'm not a master of brainstorm-fu. Are you saying Brainstorm is easier to use then Cabal Therapy? I don't get why you want to make fun of me calling me "a wanna be semi pro" for liking cards that are challenging and rewarding to use optimally

I think most people who play magic like the challenge of trying to use cards to their fullest capability, Brainstorm is the epitome of a challenging spell to use optimally. Most people enjoy that challenge, I think you're the outlier.

I'm mocking you because you tow the semi-pro bullshit line of Brainstorm being this holy fucking grail of skill in magic. Which just isn't true. So many cards test "skill" many more so then your average 'I haven't hit my land drop' brainstorm. The whole 'skill intensive' argument which discounts the game state is just dumb anyway. Umezawa's Jitte can be a skill intensive (tm) card when you are facing an Ensnaring Bridge with an equipped Noble Hierarch. Targeted discard can be the most skill intensive (tm) activity in magic, because it involves thinking through your future lines of play, their lines of play, your resources, the %'s of their top decks, their mana ratio, your threats, etc. etc.. Brainstorm can absolutely be a card that requires tough decision making, weighing odds and resources, but it's not some fucking Jacobian matrix problem.

[xfxf]

My whole post was describing an imaginary format without Brainstorms so you might want to read that with this in mind. All the decks I listed in your second quote is Brainstorm decks yes, that's why I listed them and then asked if you'd still play them without brainstorm. Your quote about GSZ and Goblin Ringleader should make more sense when you try to imagine a format without Brainstorm. That's why I started my post saying you should try to see beyond the power level and imagine how the format would evolve without it.

Edit: I also think that people who find Brainstorm overpowered should consider lesser powered formats where they can play cards like Ninja of the Deep Hours. Brainstorm is Legacy just like dual lands, and swords to plowshares and dark ritual and duress and all those old bordered rudimentary cards we used to play in Standard some years ago.

[nedleeds]

but if you look at people's responses (not just here, on other forums and IRL) it seems like many people would quit.

23% of the people here think Tarmogoyf should be banned. I could give wooden nickel about the opinions of most people if that represents the field.

[nedleeds]

My whole post was describing an imaginary format without Brainstorms so you might want to read that with this in mind. All the decks I listed in your second quote is Brainstorm decks yes, that's why I listed them and then asked if you'd still play them without brainstorm. Your quote about GSZ and Goblin Ringleader should make more sense when you try to imagine a format without Brainstorm. That's why I started my post saying you should try to see beyond the power level and imagine how the format would evolve without it.

I think it might be great. Or it might just be very similar decks with toned down consistency and some more decision making. Brainstorm makes every deck it's in easier to play, easier to mulligan, easier to mana fix, easier to dig out a solution, easier to avoid disruption. I think a better plan would be to unban some cards and see what happens first. If it becomes clear that the format is a 56 card format across all archetypes then maybe Brainstorm should go.

[wolfstorm]

23% of the people here think Tarmogoyf should be banned. I could give wooden nickel about the opinions of most people if that represents the field.

Old poll is old?.. And remember, Tarmogoyf is actually the Antichrist.

[Esper3k]

Old poll is old?.. And remember, Tarmogoyf is actually the Antichrist.

I hear he's related to that guy who killed Hans...

[AEnesidem]

If brainstorm is banned, we start a european format: "free from american whiners bullshit". (not implying all americans whine). I never hear anyone complaining here.

[Gheizen64]

23% of the people here think Tarmogoyf should be banned. I could give wooden nickel about the opinions of most people if that represents the field.

First this poll is old as shit. Second, a Goyf ban would have had a lot of sense before KotR, Nacatl, Delver, Guide, Ooze etc... were printed. But this was a pretty old discussion and i won't go there.

[Tacosnape]

The question I pose to the Ban Brainstorm because of the 32/32 Brainstorm people is this:

Would you call for the banning of Wasteland if it made 32/32?