View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    I can remember him speaking about random discard, too.
    I have no quote right now, but he spoke about how "unfun" it is to play against random discard, and therefore they don't want to do it in the future, because Magic is a game about fun.
    And yes, it was before 9th edition Hyppie reprint.

    Surely he said something about the lines like yours... that it would only be rare case blabla...

  2. #22

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    I see Top banned, for reason stated before.

    Then i see:
    Tax
    Worker

    Off the list. And maybe also Druid. Worker suck, Tax also, and Druid is too slow and vulnerable for the current format. Also, if it were viable i wouldn't mind to see a new combo in the format. Note that also Druid would be so easily hateable that it wouldn't never pose a threat to the format.
    Ad dragon to that list, there's no reason to keep that card on the list (there are like 99999999999999999999 ways to deal with it)

    Worker would be a sweet toy for my stax list (like welder if it would live to see my next turn), and the druid might just make cephalid breakfast Tier 2, same for land tax and Quin/Wombat....

    Nothing to frightning if you ask me.


    Seriously, CB+Top are the things that keep combo in check, who the hell would be stupid enoug to ban SDT (or CB) without banning some part of a combo engine like LED and Nauseam.

    2nd Top by itself is not a problem, I remember picking up my SDT's for half a buck each because they sayd "it costed mana every turn" and it only became populair with CB. At least you could run top in decks that don't use CB.

    To conclude this: if you hate CB+SDt ban the CB, since other then the time issue SDT isn't dangerous by itself.

  3. #23

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    To conclude this: if you hate CB+SDt ban the CB, since other then the time issue SDT isn't dangerous by itself.
    This is just plain wrong, saying deal with CB is pretty ignorant of how strong top is. Theres a reason in the tempo vs CT/Balance matchups the card force isnt balance but top. Top turns fetchlands into near brainstorms turns counter balance into a lock and replaces itself when someone trys to kill it(barring grip) Top is the strongest card (aside from force/goyf and maby brainstorm) in the average counterbalance deck not balance.

    Also the card that stops combo is definately not Countertop its force daze and goyf alongside the other hosers (3sphear discard and chalice)

    While my predictions will probably pretty accurate (see page 1 important formats unchanged, irrelivant casual formats infinate +24 changes) I wouldnt mind tax comming off the list simply because while it would be very good it would not be better than say counter/top although it may create problems with the actual top card I doubt it would be a major issue.

    In any event I dont see anything on or off the list as problematic because they arent THAT stupid they at least try to make things balanced and they are pretty good at it now a days.
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    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
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    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
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  4. #24
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    I think I can speak for the majority of Storm combo players that CB+Top is really the only thing keeping Storm in check right now. Personally, I feel confident going into a match-up against anything with blue but without CounterTop. If CounterTop is taken off the map (by either banning CB or Top), and with Silence being recently printed, Storm combo would RULE.
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  5. #25
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by overseer1234 View Post
    Seriously, CB+Top are the things that keep combo in check, who the hell would be stupid enoug to ban SDT (or CB) without banning some part of a combo engine like LED and Nauseam.
    Then please tell us, which cards kept combo in check before the printing and rise of CB? Yes, AN gave a boost to some combo decks after CB's printing, but not each combo deck plays AN. FoW/Discard/Chant/Chalice/Trinisphere/... should be enough, shouldn't it?
    Two+ years ago, it worked, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by overseer1234 View Post
    To conclude this: if you hate CB+SDt ban the CB, since other then the time issue SDT isn't dangerous by itself.
    Well it's still a Ponder every turn (with fetchies).

  6. #26

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by undone View Post
    This is just plain wrong, saying deal with CB is pretty ignorant of how strong top is. Theres a reason in the tempo vs CT/Balance matchups the card force isnt balance but top. Top turns fetchlands into near brainstorms turns counter balance into a lock and replaces itself when someone trys to kill it(barring grip) Top is the strongest card (aside from force/goyf and maby brainstorm) in the average counterbalance deck not balance.

    Also the card that stops combo is definately not Countertop its force daze and goyf alongside the other hosers (3sphear discard and chalice).
    Then please explain me why it took more then 2 years for top to see this much competitive play in legacy and was considered to slow for a long time.

    Then coldsnap was released and CB+Top saw play in extended, and a while after that it saw play in legacy.

    Seriously the card is not that broken, it give's good draw selection in almost the same matter that brainstorm does, bit it can be used in anny collor.

    Together with CB on the other hand it act's as a one sided chalice of the void that who's counters can be changed at wil going from 0 to 5 in some cases....

    Tell me why SDT is the problem here since it really wasn't this populair before Cb was printed... if it was as broken as you say then EVERY deck in legacy would run 4 + fetch, this clearly isn't the case ATM.

  7. #27
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    The ban wouldn't be because Top is broken but because of the amount of time it takes up.

  8. #28
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Top keeps combo in check. Therefor it cannot be banned without alot of other cards that will need a ban. Tarmogoyf is the most bannable because banning Tarmogoyf would have the least effect on meta diversity: a meta with Tarmogoyf is diverse, a meta without Tarmogoyf is diverse.
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  9. #29
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by overseer1234 View Post
    Then please explain me why it took more then 2 years for top to see this much competitive play in legacy and was considered to slow for a long time.

    Then coldsnap was released and CB+Top saw play in extended, and a while after that it saw play in legacy.

    Seriously the card is not that broken, it give's good draw selection in almost the same matter that brainstorm does, bit it can be used in anny collor.

    Together with CB on the other hand it act's as a one sided chalice of the void that who's counters can be changed at wil going from 0 to 5 in some cases....

    Tell me why SDT is the problem here since it really wasn't this populair before Cb was printed... if it was as broken as you say then EVERY deck in legacy would run 4 + fetch, this clearly isn't the case ATM.
    Some cards just pass belong the radar and it's only after a time that someone discovers their true potential. This happens even with combinations that have been available like forever. Without entering in debates about the bannability of the divining top, I think you need a better argument to defend your line of thinking.

    Also, a rethoric question... there are tons of cards that keep storm combo in check, but what keeps aggro-control in check when it becomes too powerful?

  10. #30

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    To ban Top is my choice also. Gets card quality every turn, no card disadvantadge for a more than acceptable cost (uncoloured mana), undestructible except for kgrip, and can slow games ad infinitum to get the draw. Also, combining it with fetchlands and/or shuffle effect makes it overpowered definetely

  11. #31
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    What I would do:

    Unban Dream Halls
    Unban Earthcraft
    Unban Entomb
    Unban Frantic Search
    Unban Goblin Recruiter
    Unban Grim Monolith
    Unban Gush
    Unban Hermit Druid
    Unban Illusionary Mask
    Unban Land Tax
    Unban Metalworker
    Unban Mind Twist
    Unban Time Spiral
    Unban Worldgorger Dragon

    What will happen:

    No changes.
    Last edited by Kuma; 08-26-2009 at 12:05 PM.
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    Sure as hell sounds like fun.

  12. #32

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    I honestly only think that SDT would be banned, and for the same reasons it was in Extended: it takes up too much time and drags out the match with constant card adjustments.

    I might see Lion's Eye Diamond getting banned due to the relative power it could wield in future combo decks.

    Otherwise, nothing really.


    As for what will likely happen? Nothing, really.

  13. #33
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    I could kind of agree with SDT's banning for time. Doubt it happens though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeggi View Post
    Tarmogoyf is the most bannable because banning Tarmogoyf would have the least effect on meta diversity: a meta with Tarmogoyf is diverse, a meta without Tarmogoyf is diverse.
    This is also true of Hill Giant.

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  14. #34

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    You know the really NEED to ban top, since their reason for banning it in Extended was time reasons, it's the exact same in Legacy. I still think Wizards used "time restrictions" as a lame excuse to ban Counter Top in Extended, as can be seen by it's existence in Vintage and Legacy.

    Other than that, there are some things that could come off the list, and i think we might see 1-2 cards come off. But nothing is getting banned.

  15. #35

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma View Post
    What I would do:


    Unban Goblin Recruiter
    Are you serious? Do you really want a tribal-saturated meta to become even more so? Or do you just want to play Food Chain Goblins again...

  16. #36
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Hate to say it, but the only real reason we can all agree that SDT would be banned is for time reason, when we all really know we simply hate losing to Counterbalance/Top blowout. In fact, Top isn't nearly as bad in decks that don't try to stop you from casting anything as they are the CB decks. It definitly doesn't take up as much time in those decks either.

    I still assert my previously deleted post: Top gives so many opportunities to cheat when the consequences are so trivial since the new M10 rules regarding game rules violations.

    Just think how many times a "Top" deck goes on autopilot and assumes SDT is in play and looks at the three cards. I'm willing to wager that it happens more than enough to make it a concern for judges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma
    What I would do:

    Unban Dream Halls
    Unban Earthcraft
    Unban Entomb
    Unban Frantic Search
    Unban Goblin Recruiter
    Unban Grim Monolith
    Unban Gush
    Unban Hermit Druid
    Unban Illusionary Mask
    Unban Land Tax
    Unban Metalworker
    Unban Mind Twist
    Unban Time Spiral
    Unban Worldgorger Dragon
    You clearly have no clue about how these cards work. The safer choices would be Dream Halls, Entomb, Grim Monolith, Illusionary Mask, Mind Twist, and argueably Land Tax.

    The rest are highly and consistently abuseable. Many of the rest of the cards provide an effect for zero, or positive net mana simply on their own.

    To wit:
    Earthcraft - Turn 1 Nettle Sentinel, Turn 2 Earthcraft, go off. 1 card combo.
    Frantic Search - makes Spring Tide a true contender (adds mana + card filtering), secondary uses in reanimator decks
    Goblin Recruiter - see GP San Diego 2003. Goblin Combo FTW!
    Hermit Druid - 1 card combo
    Metalworker - ok, this one is weak without Tinker, but it has potential for abuse
    Time Spiral - like TEPS needs more enablers
    Worldgorger Dragon - obv.

  17. #37
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    Hate to say it, but the only real reason we can all agree that SDT would be banned is for time reason, when we all really know we simply hate losing to Counterbalance/Top blowout. In fact, Top isn't nearly as bad in decks that don't try to stop you from casting anything as they are the CB decks. It definitly doesn't take up as much time in those decks either.

    I still assert my previously deleted post: Top gives so many opportunities to cheat when the consequences are so trivial since the new M10 rules regarding game rules violations.

    Just think how many times a "Top" deck goes on autopilot and assumes SDT is in play and looks at the three cards. I'm willing to wager that it happens more than enough to make it a concern for judges.
    I've to agree that I've got my share of "Top" players on MWS shuffling their libraries "by mistake", or trying to activate it without having mana to do so. It gets tiresome.

    Edit: I'd love to play Metalworker + Myr Incubator in legacy.

  18. #38

    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    Some cards just pass belong the radar and it's only after a time that someone discovers their true potential. This happens even with combinations that have been available like forever. Without entering in debates about the bannability of the divining top, I think you need a better argument to defend your line of thinking.

    Also, a rethoric question... there are tons of cards that keep storm combo in check, but what keeps aggro-control in check when it becomes too powerful?
    Ichorid.

    Sorry i know it was rethorical but I couldnt resist.

    Top is overwhelmingly too good with fetch lands, it is HIGHLY weakened by the lack of them.

    I dont think it will be banned. I think no changes will occur (MABY something will come off) but with a new set comming around the bend we should get 1/2 playables for the format so I am not worried.
    I c h o r i d - my anti blue
    Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
    We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
    Landstill > Fromat
    Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
    Basics > Non-Basic Hate
    We can therefore logically conlude that
    Basics > Format

  19. #39
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    It won't happen, but I'd love to see Grim Monolith and Metalworker unbanned, so we could have a viable prison deck in the format.

  20. #40
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    Re: September B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rukcus View Post
    Earthcraft - Turn 1 Nettle Sentinel, Turn 2 Earthcraft, go off. 1 card combo.
    Frantic Search - makes Spring Tide a true contender (adds mana + card filtering), secondary uses in reanimator decks
    Goblin Recruiter - see GP San Diego 2003. Goblin Combo FTW!
    Hermit Druid - 1 card combo
    Metalworker - ok, this one is weak without Tinker, but it has potential for abuse
    Time Spiral - like TEPS needs more enablers
    Worldgorger Dragon - obv.
    Okay, I'll bite: how is Earthcraft a one card combo (considering that you've already established it to be anything but?) And how is WGD obvious without the enablers to which it was accustomed? Actually, most of your complaints about those cards are either off the mark on their real strength or sky-is-falling concerns.

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