All B/R update speculation.

[Gheizen64]

Because Trinisphere requires an Ancient Tomb land and Mox to come out turn 1 as it stands. Giving it another way to do it with only one card and a regular land ups it's consistency quite a bit.

This is great in theory, but has a couple of big issues.

First, the power level of trinishpere in legacy. Many people forget that trinisphere isn't good in vintage because the curve is low, but because 50% of your mana sources in Vintage are spells. Moxen, crypt, lotus, sol. Imagine a sphere of resistance for lands AND spells. That's what trinisphere is in vintage. In legacy, Trinisphere is still strong due to low curves, but nowhere as good in vintage since we run almost twice as many lands on average. I believe even with more consistent means to play it, it would just go unplayed since the effect isn't as relevant in this format. CotV on 1 is much more relevant in legacy compared to trinishpere, and still chalice aggro isn't a good deck.

Second, the issue of mana artifact vs lands. As many said before me, mana artifact has a fundamental problem. It's mana, but count as a spell. This is especially true of cards like Vault or Monolith with non-untap clause and 1+ mana costs. It's not true of cards like Sol, Crypt or the Moxen, since they require super little-investments, but that's why those cards are broken in the first place. This mean that adding those cards inherently make the deck less consistent in terms of spells to mana ratio. This is not true only if you do a 1for1 swap Monolith->Vault, but you'd think the deck is that much improved by that? I don't think so. The deck still remain horribly inconsistant. I've tried this hypotetical MeandeckMUD list, as i feel it's probably the best artifact deck and the deck that would be most improved by Vault:

Mana: 34 cards, 16 lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
3 Mox Opal
4 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith
4 Mana Vault
4 Metalworker

Spells:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Trying some random hands:

-wurmcoil, Lodestone, wasteland, wasteland, lodestone, metalworker, voltaic key -> need the third mana source, mull
- 2vault, key, welder, Wurmcoil, Tomb, Top -> sick hand, you lay all beside welder T1 and you have a Top
- monolith, 2city, crucible,key, wurmcoil,battlesphere -> keep. City + Monolith+Key give u enough to cast battlesphere or wurm on T2 without blowing your own city, meaning a waste isn't autoloss.
- opal, crucible, Great furnace, greaves, Hellkite, Welder, wasteland -> mull. Welder T1 and then nothing
- lodestone, hellkite, welder, city, top, wurmcoil,battlesphere -> mull, nothing castable
- furnace,2city, 2 tomb, worker, wurmcoil-> mull, 5 lands hands with little gas
- 2city, 2furnace,opal,key,tomb->mull, all mana hand
- 2vault, opal, crucible, wurmcoil, kuldotha, battlesphere -> 3 mana but 0 lands, mull
- 2vault,2waste,furnace,key,kuldotha-> risky, you have 6 mana sources and a threat, mull
- kuldotha, 2 metalworker, wasteland, mox diamond,key, engine -> 2 mana but only 1 land, mull
- tomb, waste, top, worker, 2lodestone, forgemaster -> probably keep. You lose if they waste u on T1 however.

Those were my first 11 random hands via cockatrice. If there's a way to load a deck on some site and get random hands, you can see it for yourself. The deck is horribly inconsistent. You can probably improve it by tweaking numbers and all, this was the list on the OP of the MeandeckMUD topic -3 Diamond -1 Monolith +4 Vault (seemed the best exchange to me, 16 lands are no good with diamonds). Problem is you only have 7 red sources like this instead of 10, so maybe it shouldn't run welder. Suggestions are welcome.

[dahcmai]

You guys obviously didn't ever play Vintage with 4 Trinispheres around did you? Trinisphere is restricted there for a reason. It was ridiculously good. Workshop into Trinisphere was one of the most broken plays ever in Vintage for a bit. It's like a double time walk in most cases. It dominated the hell out of vintage for a bit pushing out just about everything excepting decks like Slaver that had a shot at stopping that first turn play. Either way, it was the main reason for it's restriction. I should know, I played the hell out of that deck. Man, I loved it.

We don't have shops in Legacy, but making it easier to get that little combo off is just nuts. Oddly, it's not as strong in Legacy due to the higher land counts and lack of Moxen, but it's still a double time walk. Definitely not good for the format letting any deck be able to consistently cast it first turn.


When is the next announcement anyway?

[Gheizen64]

I played my fair share of Vintage thank you. Also you never played trinisphere in legacy? T1 trinishpere in Legacy is bad.

Next announcment is June 20 iirc.

[dahcmai]

It wasn't that bad in Legacy. I played Dragon Stompy for a bit and always liked seeing a first turn sphere. It's not as good due to the amount of mana played in Legacy, but it's still crippling to several decks.

If you played Vintage, why did you say it sucked there? It was horrible. I loved being on the end of playing it first and watching people just groan.



Oh and thanks, I always forget that date.

[Tacosnape]

Calling it now: No changes.

Then we see like 3-6 cards come off (And possibly something get added) in 3 months when the metagame's still too blue.

[Gheizen64]

It wasn't that bad in Legacy. I played Dragon Stompy for a bit and always liked seeing a first turn sphere. It's not as good due to the amount of mana played in Legacy, but it's still crippling to several decks.

If you played Vintage, why did you say it sucked there? It was horrible. I loved being on the end of playing it first and watching people just groan.



Oh and thanks, I always forget that date.

I didn't say it sucked it Vintage. I just said i played Vintage and i know it was retarded, but i also said trini isn't half as good as it is in Vintage in Legacy, for obvious reasons. Also Mana Vault isn't coming off the list anytime soon.

Calling no changes too, WotC is SO slow on this thing. We waited what, 2 years to see Monolith and Worker unbanned ?

[DragoFireheart]

Calling it now: No changes.

Then we see like 3-6 cards come off (And possibly something get added) in 3 months when the metagame's still too blue.

Land Tax may finally come off the list. :)


Anyways, here are cards I predict WotC may attempt to take off the ban list:


Earthcraft
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mind Twist


I think all of those cards have the greatest chance of being unbanned. Everything else seems too powerful.

[Sims]

Memory Jar


I think all of those cards have the greatest chance of being unbanned. Everything else seems too powerful.

I don't mean to be that guy... but...

lolwut?

[Gheizen64]

Land Tax may finally come off the list. :)


Anyways, here are cards I predict WotC may attempt to take off the ban list:


Earthcraft
Hermit Druid
Land Tax
Memory Jar
Mind Twist


I think all of those cards have the greatest chance of being unbanned. Everything else seems too powerful.

Vise is more safe than any card on that list except MAYBE mind twist. And it's no surprise, given it's a reactionary card.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't mean to be that guy... but...

lolwut?

What's wrong? Speak up!

[Sims]

Aside from making fringe decks like Caress/Megrim playable (and hilarious)... I think we already had a discussion in this thread on how ridiculously busted Jar would be in this format. I can think of no reason that I'd want to give both Combo and MUD decks a Draw 7 that can potentially screw me out of answers depending on what my jar'd 7 are.

[Rune]

What's wrong? Speak up!

I think the general fear is that giving brown decks a draw 7 is a really bad idea, because they have so much fast mana available now. Goblin Welder also makes Jar do silly things in those kinds of decks. I don't think Jar would improve Dark Ritual combo noticably, though, since Diminishing Returns sees 0 maindeck play, and the drawback of that card is pretty insignificant. I'd be curious to know if Megrim + Jar would be unfair. I think not, since you'd have to resolve either 2x Jar + 1x Megrim or 2x Megrim + 1x Jar to win. Plus, you're playing a combo deck that loses to Disenchant.

[Sims]

I don't think Megrim Jar would be too broken, but do keep in mind you get to run 8 Megrims, so 1 jar is probably all you need ontop of having other discard to ping in before jar resolves.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think Megrim Jar would be too broken, but do keep in mind you get to run 8 Megrims, so 1 jar is probably all you need ontop of having other discard to ping in before jar resolves.

I'd love to see a Megrim competitve deck! R/B with various discards and such.

[Rune]

I don't think Megrim Jar would be too broken, but do keep in mind you get to run 8 Megrims, so 1 jar is probably all you need ontop of having other discard to ping in before jar resolves.

Ah yes, forgot about the new and improved Megrim. That could very well make it a good deck. However, it's much more susceptible to hate than many of combo decks that are legal now, because it loses to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Null Rod, bassically all the hate bears and it will also lose to disenchant effects on occasion when you don't have enough Megrims/dsicard to overcome it.

I think the game has changed a lot since it was auto-banned that it could be interesting to have it come off. People will be able to fight it much better now, and even though it might make MUD insane, those decks still aren't fast enough to avoid scrooping to a Null Rod. Or am I just being crazy?

[DragoFireheart]

Ah yes, forgot about the new and improved Megrim. That could very well make it a good deck. However, it's much more susceptible to hate than many of combo decks that are legal now, because it loses to Pithing Needle, Stifle, Null Rod, bassically all the hate bears and it will also lose to disenchant effects on occasion when you don't have enough Megrims/dsicard to overcome it.

I think the game has changed a lot since it was auto-banned that it could be interesting to have it come off. People will be able to fight it much better now, and even though it might make MUD insane, those decks still scroop to Null Rod. Or am I just being crazy? ;0

Null Rod
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall


Bye bye MUD, Affinity and other annoying artifact heavy decks.

[spirit of the wretch]

Null Rod
Energy Flux
Hurkyl's Recall


Bye bye MUD, Affinity and other annoying artifact heavy decks.

This is an argument that annoys me whenever someone dregs it up again.

You know how many cards "answer" Minds Desire? A bunch! Yawgmoth's Will? A frigging ton! Does that mean they should unban any of those cards? Proooobably not.

Anyway to not just nerd rage through the world: I'd like to see Land Tax (yeah, like that's going to happen...), Mind Twist and Worldgorger Dragon unbanned.
All of these cards seem pretty fair.

Though "No change" is the save bet, obviously.

[DragoFireheart]

This is an argument that annoys me whenever someone dregs it up again.

You know how many cards "answer" Minds Desire? A bunch! Yawgmoth's Will? A frigging ton! Does that mean they should unban any of those cards? Proooobably not.

Anyway to not just nerd rage through the world:

That's quite the nerdrage for an argument that wasn't pertaining to Memory Jar in any capacity. Read my post a little more carefully before blowing up next time.

[dahcmai]

I think I'll actually say Black Vise this time. There's probably no way that will happen, but it seems the safest one past Land Tax and you know that will stay on there until the day Black Lotus comes off. Vise would have the effect of kicking blue based control in the teeth.

[Admiral_Arzar]

That's quite the nerdrage for an argument that wasn't pertaining to Memory Jar in any capacity. Read my post a little more carefully before blowing up next time.

Previously, I would have argued quite vehementlly against Jar's unban (and I'm a storm combo player...). However, your arguments have made me think about it a little more, and I honestly don't think it would be that bad. The main thing that makes Jar scary is that it would spawn an entirely new combo deck (or decks, I think Megrim/Jar and Jar Tendrils), one unlike any seen before in Legacy, and it's very difficult to gauge the power of said deck without actually testing it. The same applies to Mind's Desire, but I believe that card is more broken than either Jar or Time Spiral (which I consider to be on about an even footing). Jar would certainly give MUD a shot in the arm, but honestly that deck needs more consistent mana accel to be truly good.

The MUD issue brings up a card somebody discussed a while ago, Mana Vault. I've never really thought about what unbanning this card could do, but it would certainly be interesting. Essentially, it's a more broken Grim Monolith - but the latter isn't really that broken at all, so I don't know. I think if WOTC wants to make MUD good enough to really compete (without doing something stupid like unbanning Shop) unbanning that card is the way to go. The issue is, it also strengthens combo (as it can serve as another ritual if you play engines that require lots of colorless a la Ad Nauseum). Then again, if MUD is strong, combo is in a lot of trouble (see Vintage where Tendrils decks are being hated out of the format by an onslaught of Workshop decks). Of course, it also gets countered by Mental Misstep, so it's at least something to think about.