All B/R update speculation.

[FoolofaTook]

To be fair, if blue didn't exist, those decks would still be bad.

Those lists existed and were successful alongside TES for several years and ANT for at least one. They existed in a meta defined by Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. The meta they can't navigate is the one in which 70% of the top lists are using blue cantrips and counterspells to minimize the variance. That's where they become too random to stand up at the final tables.

[Lemnear]

Those lists existed and were successful alongside TES for several years and ANT for at least one. They existed in a meta defined by Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. The meta they can't navigate is the one in which 70% of the top lists are using blue cantrips and counterspells to minimize the variance. That's where they become too random to stand up at the final tables.

Except that during that time the B&R threads tenor was to ban LED ... you can look it up!

[ceustice]

I am really getting sick of reading this same shitty line over and over. You know what I own? Every deck that has top eighted an SGC event in the last 6 months that is not Infect, Reanimator, DnT or SnT. (Strange left field things not withstanding) I have the Blue cards, I have them all and you know what I have the most fun playing? Painter. A FUCKING RED DECK. Know what I like second? Elves, then R/G Lands. Please, tell me which on of these fucking lists is Blue. Saying the same thing over and over does not make it true. Yes, the Blue shell is every-fucking-where, yes, it is a pain, but that does not mean that you are without effective and fun options. Know what Lands does? Draws 3 cards a turn and beats you to death with a 20/20 (Fuck yea). Know what Painter does? Locks you out of playing the game and punishes you for that 1800 dollar mana base. Know what Elves does? Tinkers, Recalls, plays broken lands and has a hell of a time doing it. Burn say's "Hay I just spent 400 bucks and I am am going to wreck your whole day". DnT says "Your locked out of the house and I stole your keys". Other decks do equally broken things and look good doing it. Wholly shit, it almost sounds like fun non Blue decks for people to play.

Turns out the most crappy things going on at the moment is the shit coming from the lemmings who stick with what they see the "Pros" playing. Yes, turns out its easier to play a deck you you picked up 3 weeks ago and have no practice with if you have half a brain, can remember your triggers and can pick out what cards are best to keep off a brainstorm. Funny thing, Brainstorm is better if you have been playing it for years. Tom Ross proves that. So yes, you can play follow the leader or you can find something that suits you and I personally would ask that you stop telling me how crappy it is to play this game while I enjoy watching U/R Delver sac all his tokens to my Tabernacle. Because I played Goblins for 8 years and I am kind of attached to Red. Turns out it aint that bad to play that if you pick the right deck and practise with it.

In short:
Followers will follow, you want to strike out on your own, go ahead. There are paths to be found and rewards waiting if you do. If you only want to bitch about how horrible this format is, please, take it elsewhere. Because I while I agree that playing Blue is like switching your game to "Easy", being skilled is still something that happens inside the player, not the ink printed on the cards.

I am more than able to own Blue decks and have fun playing Red. So speak for yourself, but I disagree that this is a crappy time to be playing.

Agree with this!

[FoolofaTook]

Except that during that time the B&R threads tenor was to ban LED ... you can look it up!

That doesn't have anything to do with anything. At no point did LED reach the penetration of the meta that Brainstorm has. At no point was it in 20% of the lists at the top tables let alone 60%+.

[Lemnear]

That doesn't have anything to do with anything. At no point did LED reach the penetration of the meta that Brainstorm has. At no point was it in 20% of the lists at the top tables let alone 60%+.

I'm positive that Brainstorm was in 50%+ of lists for years. You can go back to 2011 and see that Brainstorm was in 52,2% of decks during the year; 62% in 2012 and 63,8% in 2013.

This has more to do with WotC printing blue powerhouses and Hype material like Delver/TNN/SCM/TC than with Brainstorms potence imo.

[Meekrab]

Interesting stats. But couldn't much of that be blamed on the fact they're running the Modern IQs at the same time, which could be pulling people away from Legacy?

Also fall/winter versus summer/fall.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Dice Box, I'm the same way. I can play any blue list I want, but opt to run Tin Fins (Yeah, some blue, but it's combo) or Deadguy Ale (funny how good it honestly is). Also, I'm excited about this meta for a different reason: my two sets of Stoneforges are much better these days than a set of goyfs. Maybe not value-wise, but playability these days? Definitely the Mystics. I'm pleased I'm getting my money's worth out of a card I feel is financially under-valued by everyone (besides BBD and Shahar Shenhar lol) and still able to play a tier one list.

I think I like this format and the current meta for one main reason: Since I first started playing magic back in sixth grade (Odyssey-ish), blue has felt most like real magic, black as well. Red has it's obvious contribution as well, but overall, non-blue aggro strategies feels like War, not Magic (Goblins, Zoo, Lookin' at you). Pok'emon. Something. Not Magic, but something... Combo is for sure the essence of Magic.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm positive that Brainstorm was in 50%+ of lists for years. You can go back to 2011 and see that Brainstorm was in 52,2% of decks during the year; 62% in 2012 and 63,8% in 2013.

This has more to do with WotC printing blue powerhouses and Hype material like Delver/TNN/SCM/TC than with Brainstorms potence imo.

It has to do with the blue shell reaching critical mass over time. The number of strong blue cards has accumulated to the point that not playing blue is a mistake if what you are interested in doing is competing at the top tables.

The shell has to be weakened. Any cards that are powerful that are not specifically proscribed by mana cost or rules text will fold into the shell. This is what happened with Tarmogoyf and Stoneforge Mystic and Abrupt Decay. It's what happened with Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach. It's what happened with Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt. It's what will happen with any new power that enters the format. It will be the most valuable in the shell that can most consistently find and exploit it.

People just don't get this. Being able to find power is the most important thing in competitive Magic. You can put together the most over-powered collection of cards ever and if they come up randomly you won't get full value from them. If you can sequence them reliably and find the cards you need when you need them they will be more powerful than the collective sum of their parts.

What Legacy has done is to ban almost all of the tutors that can be used effectively, almost all of them non-blue, while maintaining almost all of the spells that enable you to go find stuff over a sequence of a few turns early on, almost all of them blue.

That's why we have the format we have.

And no, unbanning things like Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor wouldn't help because they'd just fold into the blue shell.

Printing cheaper versions of things like Idyllic Tutor and more effective version of things like Worldly Tutor wouldn't help either because if they were actually good they'd go into the blue shell.

Weakening the blue shell so that it is not head over heels above the rest of the format in terms of finding things is what they need to do. It's too good and it's only going to get better with every powerful card they print from hereon out.

They could go the other route and begin printing very strong consistency tools in the other colors to balance things out but they have no track record that suggests they will do this.

Seriously, I'm fighting for a playable Legacy format at this point. Blue shell with the odd outlier is going to be unaffordable for most players and unpalatable to many who can afford it.

Modern is a junk format. It's always going to be a junk format. Too many cards are excluded and the entire mana subgame blows chunks because effective land destruction is not part of the format.

[davelin]

It has to do with the blue shell reaching critical mass over time. The number of strong blue cards has accumulated to the point that not playing blue is a mistake if what you are interested in doing is competing at the top tables.

The shell has to be weakened. Any cards that are powerful that are not specifically proscribed by mana cost or rules text will fold into the shell. This is what happened with Tarmogoyf and Stoneforge Mystic and Abrupt Decay. It's what happened with Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach. It's what happened with Lightning Bolt and Forked Bolt. It's what will happen with any new power that enters the format. It will be the most valuable in the shell that can most consistently find and exploit it.

People just don't get this. Being able to find power is the most important thing in competitive Magic. You can put together the most over-powered collection of cards ever and if they come up randomly you won't get full value from them. If you can sequence them reliably and find the cards you need when you need them they will be more powerful than the collective sum of their parts.

What Legacy has done is to ban almost all of the tutors that can be used effectively, almost all of them non-blue, while maintaining almost all of the spells that enable you to go find stuff over a sequence of a few turns early on, almost all of them blue.

That's why we have the format we have.

And no, unbanning things like Demonic Tutor and Vampiric Tutor wouldn't help because they'd just fold into the blue shell.

Printing cheaper versions of things like Idyllic Tutor and more effective version of things like Worldly Tutor wouldn't help either because if they were actually good they'd go into the blue shell.

Weakening the blue shell so that it is not head over heels above the rest of the format in terms of finding things is what they need to do. It's too good and it's only going to get better with every powerful card they print from hereon out.

They could go the other route and begin printing very strong consistency tools in the other colors to balance things out but they have no track record that suggests they will do this.

Seriously, I'm fighting for a playable Legacy format at this point. Blue shell with the odd outlier is going to be unaffordable for most players and unpalatable to many who can afford it.

Modern is a junk format. It's always going to be a junk format. Too many cards are excluded and the entire mana subgame blows chunks because effective land destruction is not part of the format.

Wouldn't weakening blue as you suggest lead to more of a format you're deriding ala Modern?

[Lemnear]

Wouldn't weakening blue as you suggest lead to more of a format you're deriding ala Modern?

We can't predict how the format would react, because Modern doesn't have to deal with Wasteland/SFM/Jace/S&T/LED/TNN/Daze/FoW/etc. We can only predict how certain decks would react to the loss of Brainstorm if their glue is removed. We have already seen how UWR Blade works with SDT.

Fact is that the only thing that weakens ALL card selection and ensures that we're not back here within 3 months with people lamenting that the "blue shell" of Ponder/Preordain/SDT is overpowered in terms of card selection, is banning Fetchlands.

[HrishiQQ]

This entire discussion just makes me think about how close Natural Selection came to being one of the most expensive cards ever printed. All it needed to do was cantrip.

[Lemnear]

This entire discussion just makes me think about how close Natural Selection came to being one of the most expensive cards ever printed. All it needed to do was cantrip.

Correct. Would have been Ponder as instant, in green and 15 years ahead of time

[catmint]

So much discussion about blue and brainstorm going on. I am mostly reading but here my 2c.

There are people who say things are fine - just innovate or "the format is meant to be completely blue".
Others want to see brainstorm (or fetchlands) gone to weaken the blue shell.
Some people think cards like Treasure cruise, DTT, Delver and Nemesis are mistakes.

I am personally leaning towards the third group.

Brainstorm is awesome and supports all types of different strategies/decks. It defines the format and I want to keep it.
I still enjoy the format and there is room to innovate and hate - however there is not enough incentive not to be blue and I don't see why blue should have the best aggressive creature and the most resilient creature. Blue should have the best card draw but the delve mechanic is just way to synergistic with all the cheap cantrips, so DTT and Cruise are imo a tad too powerful for the format.

It all comes down to wizards not giving a damn.

If I could decide I would unban a lot, ban some of the recent blue mistakes and print some fair blue hate (blue can't splash).
I understand that wizards does not want to test/develop for legacy, but it would be very easy for them to loosen up a lot with their banning/unbannings to keep things moving outside of blue power creep.

Maybe the community can start making wizards care somehow.
They are coin operated so with a new way to better monetize from the legacy community we might get more love.
I am sure I am not the only one who is willing to pay to keep this awesome format alive and moving.
Any ideas?

[FoolofaTook]

Wouldn't weakening blue as you suggest lead to more of a format you're deriding ala Modern?

Not unless they got rid of Wasteland and all the good staples that Legacy has and Modern doesn't. They could get rid of Brainstorm and Ponder and Legacy would still allow for effective aggro control in the blue shell and that fact alone would keep the format from degenerating into turn 4 mid-range combo uber alles.

Modern is the piece of crap format that it is because it's a linear clusterf*ck that has both players doing Alphonse and Gaston until turn 4 when somebody flips things and goes off. It's like the worst possible competition you can have in an eternal format. It's like a faster version of Standard, which I'm sure is what WotC wanted when they developed it.

Modern could be fixed by unbanning Wasteland and Counterspell. It still wouldn't be a great format but it would be much better than it is now.

[FoolofaTook]

Ban the draw3 with 80% saturation and see what happens?

Yep. The control on card power in Legacy is supposed to be bans. We don't have a restricted list to chuck a card onto when it becomes too prevalent in the metagame and is powering most of the lists at the top tables. We have a ban list to accomplish that.

This is what the Survival of the Fittest ban was all about, right? It was creating too much consistency at the top of tournaments for all of what? 6 months?

[Barsoom]

It all comes down to wizards not giving a damn.

If I could decide I would unban a lot, ban some of the recent blue mistakes and print some fair blue hate (blue can't splash).
I understand that wizards does not want to test/develop for legacy, but it would be very easy for them to loosen up a lot with their banning/unbannings to keep things moving outside of blue power creep.

This.

We could talk about blue, bans, unbans, brainstorm forever but if, as we are seeing from some years, wizards does not give a fuck about testing cards for legacy/unbanning cards for legacy/does not give a fuck about legacy period all our talking is plain and simple useless. Sadly given that their business can go on with just Limited Standard and Modern i'm not seeing a good solution for this in the near and long term.

[catmint]

If wizards is not interested in monetizing and investing in legacy, why not hand over the format to the community to decide on bannings / unbannings.
...Democracy...

They establish criteria which make you eligable to vote (playing a certain amount of legacy with your DCI).
Then people can run for a seat in a committee if they get a certain amount of legacy eligable DCI's to support them.
A committee decides based on absolute majority.
The committee is reelected every year.

#powertothepeople

This whole stupid threads would then actually make sense.
People running on banning certain cards or keeping them in the in the format.

[Julian23]

If wizards is not interested in monetizing and investing in legacy, why not hand over the format to the community to decide on bannings / unbannings.
...Democracy...

They establish criteria which make you eligable to vote (playing a certain amount of legacy with your DCI).
Then people can run for a seat in a committee if they get a certain amount of legacy eligable DCI's to support them.
A committee decides based on absolute majority.
The committee is reelected every year.

#powertothepeople

This whole stupid threads would then actually make sense.
People running on banning certain cards or keeping them in the in the format.

Matt suggested this to me before. As much as I love this format, it would make me quit it almost immediately. Unsanctioned Legacy is not where I want to be.

[catmint]

Does it have to be unsanctioned?

[Julian23]

Does it have to be unsanctioned?

No. But it would be.