All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

Ok, so BS isn't op? I'm interested in your opinion, as many uninformed players think otherwise.

no, people argue that the undoubtful power of Brainstorm is a PROBLEM for the format, STIFLES diversity and makes Legacy an UNFUN FORMAT to play ... Despite all the 4k player GPs, which hint at the opposite

Lackey is at >70% penetration? Quite a shlong for a mere goblin...

Lighning Bolt is in 80%+ of red decks. Plows are in 90% of white decks. Is it an indicator of a problem itself? Numbers without context are the nonsense I already adressed in the previous post about Wasteland

U-um. It's about whole BS power, not only about consistency it gives. And I know you know that.

Really? I could swear you wrote about the REPEDITIVE experience of turn 1 PONDER. Check. Yep, You did

[Bed Decks Palyer]

no, people argue that the undoubtful power of Brainstorm is a PROBLEM for the format, STIFLES diversity and makes Legacy an UNFUN FORMAT to play ... Despite all the 4k player GPs, which hint at the opposite

4k ppl @ scg held gp is maybe about promo. It doesnt answer the question if BS is or isn't too powerful.

Lighning Bolt is in 80%+ of red decks. Plows are in 90% of white decks. Is it an indicator of a problem itself? Numbers without context are the nonsense I already adressed in the previous post about Wasteland
U-um. It's about whole BS power, not only about consistency it gives. And I know you know that.

You're comparing Bolt and BS? What's next in line? Craw Wurm vs. Storm Cauldron?

Really? I could swear you wrote about the REPEDITIVE experience of turn 1 PONDER. Check. Yep, You did

Ponder, BS, does it even matter?

[bakofried]

This thread is getting out of hand, and that's coming from someone who has pushed for *something* to be done about the cantrip cartel. The big thing about Portland wasn't Maverick taking first (though I was ecstatic) - it was that there was only one Miracles deck in the top 16. What's going on there?

[ahg113]

Oh, then we can make the Insectile Aberation a 3/1 with shroud instead of a 3/2? Make Dark Confidant a 1/1 with Shroud? A loss of a single point among P/T does not outweight an additional ability

There's some dishonesty with this argument. Flash is an ability of the spell, while your changes are added abilities to the creature. On the playing field, your cards have much greater impact, whereas giving SotL flash just gives more interaction and game play. So, there's that. Also, very repetitive with the shroud, which is a default smidge better than hexproof.

Cheers,
would be happy with a 1/1 Bob with shadow

[ahg113]

Here's the bull shit part of this round about discussion, those not in the U camp want something done, those in the U camp are happy the way it is. It'd be just as swell if color-pie/identity doesn't matter that MtG prints a word for word copy of BS in the other colors- but that's crazy!

Otherwise, sacrifice all the blue creatures that aren't blue- X off Delver, TNN, Snappy and V. Clique.

So, other colors can't get the hand consistency, deck manipulation, but blue can have efficient and cheap creatures with evasion, and this is "balanced".

Yeah... that's some circular logic.

[Lemnear]

There's some dishonesty with this argument. Flash is an ability of the spell, while your changes are added abilities to the creature. On the playing field, your cards have much greater impact, whereas giving SotL flash just gives more interaction and game play. So, there's that. Also, very repetitive with the shroud, which is a default smidge better than hexproof.

Cheers,
would be happy with a 1/1 Bob with shadow

Fine, replace the shroud/hexproof stuff with Uncounterability, Split Second or the like. A flash 1/1 SFM or split-second 1/1 Reclamation Sage is still nuts. All those abilities (no matter if stack-only or not) are worth more mana and cannot be balanced by a mere point of P/T which was my point. I expect a flash Version of Spirit to cost 3 because of that.


Edit:

Here's the bull shit part of this round about discussion, those not in the U camp want something done, those in the U camp are happy the way it is. It'd be just as swell if color-pie/identity doesn't matter that MtG prints a word for word copy of BS in the other colors- but that's crazy!

Otherwise, sacrifice all the blue creatures that aren't blue- X off Delver, TNN, Snappy and V. Clique.

So, other colors can't get the hand consistency, deck manipulation, but blue can have efficient and cheap creatures with evasion, and this is "balanced".

Yeah... that's some circular logic.

No one ever said that.

It's not ok that blue gets raw, cheap carddraw, the most aggressive threat in the format and a mini-Progenitus ontop of it's Supreme Library Manipulation.

[FoolofaTook]

I said this on Twitter before: it also seems super convenient to argue that 81% of the Top16 was on Brainstorm, thus something is wrong. How many people played Brainstorm to begin with?

How does this argument not rebound on you though?

If 81% of the top 16 was an over-representation of Brainstorm's presence then it argues that the card is too powerful and therefore determinative, however if 81% of the top 16 was about right then it argues that the card is too determinative and therefore powerful.

In either case you have a single card that is present as a playset in far too many lists and thus determining the flow of the meta.

[Lemnear]

How does this argument not rebound on you though?

If 81% of the top 16 was an over-representation of Brainstorm's presence then it argues that the card is too powerful and therefore determinative, however if 81% of the top 16 was about right then it argues that the card is too determinative and therefore powerful.

In either case you have a single card that is present as a playset in far too many lists and thus determining the flow of the meta.

I don't get your point. Brainstorm was not overperforming due to it's metagame representation. If in a local Thursday 10-man tourney 7 people play Dredge and three Dredge decks are in the top 4, Stinkweed Imp is in 75% of top performing lists, but it doesn't give evidence of the card being broken or better as Golgari Grave-Troll or Bridge from Below or any card within the three non-Dredge decks of my example.

[menace13]

I don't get your point. Brainstorm was not overperforming due to it's metagame representation. If in a local Thursday 10-man tourney 7 people play Dredge and three Dredge decks are in the top 4, Stinkweed Imp is in 75% of top performing lists, but it doesn't give evidence of the card being broken or better as Golgari Grave-Troll or Bridge from Below or any card within the three non-Dredge decks of my example.

I'm sure that if makes brainstorm less popular. I'm sure at large real events people will put down brainstorms for imps. I'm also sure that 4 decks without brainstorm in a scg top 16 means decks with out brainstorm will continue to place as frequently as decks with brainstorm. One day everyone will just figure brainstorm isnt the best card in the format and suddenly there wont be majority of players playing the most broken strats.

[JPoJohnson]

Is this thread a Brainstorm Ban Discussion thread nowadays? I haven't seen anything else discussed for any measurable duration for months.

[Dice_Box]

Delver pops up from time to time and every so often someone mentions an unban, other than that, yep.

[wonderPreaux]

Enjoy your stay, and be sure to stop by our Banlist thread for our perennial discussion of how Brainstorm is ruining the format but Survival can fix it.

[Hopo]

This thread is amusing even while lacking actual intelligent discussion. It's a good reminder on how terrible idea a format which would be managed by the community actually is, though.

[mikeshimoji]

This thread is amusing even while lacking actual intelligent discussion. It's a good reminder on how terrible idea a format which would be managed by the community actually is, though.

Lol and second this.

[H]

I thought I could fight the good fight, perhaps educate people as to how they could formulate their ideas in to actual defensible positions, but I lack the skill and eloquence to do that.

In the end if people can't even recognize the difference between a 1 and a 0, there really is no hope of me explaining that. If people want to start with a feeling and then support it with selective data, I can't stop them.

[rlesko]

I thought I could fight the good fight, perhaps educate people as to how they could formulate their ideas in to actual defensible positions, but I lack the skill and eloquence to do that.

In the end if people can't even recognize the difference between a 1 and a 0, there really is no hope of me explaining that. If people want to start with a feeling and then support it with selective data, I can't stop them.

"people who don't agree with me are wrong"

ftfy.

[FieryBalrog]

I don't get your point. Brainstorm was not overperforming due to it's metagame representation. If in a local Thursday 10-man tourney 7 people play Dredge and three Dredge decks are in the top 4, Stinkweed Imp is in 75% of top performing lists, but it doesn't give evidence of the card being broken or better as Golgari Grave-Troll or Bridge from Below or any card within the three non-Dredge decks of my example.

You should try opening 1. h4 in chess. I hear it's severely underrepresented in pro games due to the hive mind around e4 and d4.

[H]

"people who don't agree with me are wrong"

ftfy.

Thanks for proving my point for me.

[maharis]

I could take the same flawed logic route which some users try for Brainstorm:

"Wasteland is in 38% of all decks. It stifles diversity of decks running tool-lands and engines which root on Dark Depths, Punishing Fire, Karakas, Manlands and non-basics in general. Without all these Wasteland-decks in the format, decks which utilize non-basics can shine again without being oppressed by this undercosted, in fact ZERO-MANA landdestruction. WotC has decided that Landdestruction is bearable at 4 mana as recent printings show and Wasteland is ergo simply undercosted and broken. It should be banned to increase diversity."

First of all, it's funny to compare a card with 38% penetration to one with 70%+. Think about that for a second. Would this discussion be live at all if Brainstorm was at 38% penetration? If Wasteland was at 70%, would people be calling for a ban?

Second of all, even if Wasteland was at 70%+ penetration, it would at worst be a 56-card format. It is a colorless land with a desirable effect that any deck can play. And yes, I know WHY elves and storm and Miracles don't play wasteland. What I'm saying is that if they wanted to, they COULD.

The problem with Brainstorm is that even non-blue decks want it. Jund wants it, that's why we have BUG. Painter wants it, that's why we have UR painter decks. Burn wants it, that's why we have Delver. Deadguy wants it, that's why we have Stoneblade. Sneak Attack wants it, that's why we have Show & Tell. You can build mono-green Cloudpost and mono-black Reanimator decks. But why would you when adding Brainstorm just makes the deck so much better?

And then once you make the financial and/or deck construction changes to incorporate Brainstorm, you end up going farther into blue. Force is always the first thing that gets added, then you up your blue count. So you add Ponder, then maybe Probe or Cruise or Delver or TNN or whatever.

Let me make your arguments for you:

"Why is this bad?" Because this is supposed to be a format where you can play cards from all of Magic's history, and the pool of playable cards is narrowed every printing. And the decks aren't really all that different.

I've been testing for a Modern tournament. Despite the criticism it gets on this board, Modern is quite varied due to the many different ways in which decks try to gain card advantage. There are tempo decks that play Serum Visions and Treasure Cruise. Scapeshift plays Peer through Depths, Izzet Charm, and Dig Through Time. There are Dark Confidant decks. There are Birthing Pod decks. Notably, there is no deck in Modern whose goal is just to troll the meta like D&T or Lejay's deck. (I know there's a hatebear deck, but it's fringe.) It's difficult to do that because it's not just a matter of Thalia/3ball + Wasteland shutting down any slow draw because that's the only axis of attack. In modern, knowing the meta is incredibly important because the cards that are good against URx aren't good against BGx. You can't roll up with your Chokes and REBs and be covered for 70% of the meta.

"What about the 4k player Grand Prix?" You mean the one where people complained about seeing only Delver on stream all day? The one that was fueled by people buying blue staples at an insane rate earlier in the year? You know what people remember from that event? Joe Lossett tweeting cards he had never seen in Legacy before. People want to see different cards in this format.

"What about the decks a Brainstorm ban kills?" We don't know what would happen yet. It's possible that some decks will become unplayable. That's life. There may be new interesting decks that pop up. Or nothing could change because Ponder, Preordain, and Cruise are all still strong. The thing is we don't know, so why worry too much about it? This isn't like banning a card to kill a particular deck.

"Why not ban all the mistakes wizards made instead?" Because those aren't just blue. Delver, TNN, maybe. Cruise, S&T, maybe. SFM? Young Pyromancer? Tarmogoyf? Griselbrand? Emrakul? So in order to protect a couple decks, we have to kill dozens of other archetypes? And are we really going to say that a 3/2 creature is the problem? An 8-mana sorcery? Some of those cards are only playable because of Brainstorm.

[rlesko]

Thanks for proving my point for me.

My point is there is no correct answer. There are flaws in every argument.

In the end if people can't even recognize the difference between a 1 and a 0, there really is no hope of me explaining that. If people want to start with a feeling and then support it with selective data, I can't stop them.

All data is selective since we don't have a lot of statistics. Most arguments on here are valid, people just think that their logic trumps someone else's. Ergo my first post quoting you.