All B/R update speculation.

[(nameless one)]

Anybody think Yawgmoth's Bargain could come off?

While we're at it, why not Memory Jar?

But back to the topic, I think the reason why Land Tax and Mind Twist is banned is because of how powerful they used to be. The problem is there are a lot of cards have been printed as of late that balances these cards out. Maybe WotC will see it one day. I mean a lot of 'broken' cards have been unbanned since the Type1.5 to Legacy change.

Don't unban Replenish or Enchantress will dominate the format

Don't unban Dream Halls because we don't want to see crazy combos dominating the format

Don't unban Entomb because its essentially a tutor with no drawback in Reanimator/Dredge/any graveyard.dec

Don't unban Metalworker because mana that fast is not healthy for the format

Don't unban Grim Monolith because it will make the current combo decks a turn faster

Don't unban Time Spiral or Spring Tide will be impossible to beat

Remember these?

Though I think the reason why Land Tax is banned is because of the time involved around it. It was hinted on that article when Time Spiral was unbanned.

[kiblast]

I'm predicting that it'll actually be Brainstorm that finally gets the axe. It needs to be.

I personally think Misstep's solid for the format. I like the fact that any deck can have some way of interacting now.

In the future, nonblue players are going to finally understand that playing Misstep in their nonblue decks lets them counter Brainstorm.

Brainstorm is balanced (I'd say needed, unless you don't want Merfolk to be even more dominating), as well as Misstep. I think nothing will be banned.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I would really love to see Mind Twist come off, it's a powerful but completely fair card. It would see only marginal play but would be a great tool to have around.

Land Tax obv., Black Vise, Goblin Recruiter should also come off.

Also I agree with Gheizen that I generally consider it harder to play Preordain or Ponder correctly than Brainstorm. I mean much of the time Brainstorm is dumb easy to play, get rid of two lands and drop a fetch. Not really a mind-breaker there. Sure, sometimes it's really tough figuring out what to put back, and sometimes it's really tough knowing whether to use Bolt to take out a creature or save it to dome someone, but most of the time Brainstorm is easier than most other card filtering since you can hang onto and get rid of crap in your hand.

I also wouldn't mind them banning Natural Order and Show and Tell. Reanimator without the hoops and vulnerability to sideboard hate isn't a strategy that I think adds much of value to the game. I'm not saying that they should ban either card- it's not clear that they're too powerful- I am just saying that I would give 1-0.999... fucks if they did.

Words do not describe how much I'd love to see Black Vise off of the banned list. There's nothing I love more than giving a giant middle finger to blue-based control deck players.

[Solar Ice]

Words do not describe how much I'd love to see Black Vise off of the banned list. There's nothing I love more than giving a giant middle finger to blue-based control deck players.

They'd likely give you the middle finger right back by Mental Misstepping it :X

[wcm8]

TROLOLOLOLOL

But seriously, no. The card is like Ad Nauseum, but without restricting how you design your deck. I hear it's pretty good with Show and Tell and Academy Rector as well.

Re: Show and Tell, why not just drop Emrakul or Hive Mind (or any fat, game-winning monster such as Blightsteel Collossus) and win that turn/the next? Bringing Show and Tell into the argument seems arbitrary since that card enables tons of degenerate strategies.

Bargain costs six, and having double Dark Ritual for dropping it turn 2 is magical fantasy land (not to mention playing into a Daze, Spell Pierce, or FoW -- or even Misstep on the Rituals.) In Legacy, if you can resolve a CMC6 spell, you probably deserve to win the game.

The card is susceptible to both Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip (each activation is a discrete ability). Against aggro, the life loss can be relevant if you don't drop it early enough. Control would use the same tools to fight is as any 'regular' combo decks, and the combo mirror is typically just as draw dependent.

Enabling a new archetype doesn't seem that bad to me. I think if Show and Tell were banned, this card could possibly be safe to come off, even with 'enablers' like Enlightened Tutor, Replenish, and Academy Rector in the format.

[mordraid]

land tax was banned not because of power level, but because it stalled games and took too much time.

[kiblast]

The card is susceptible to both Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip (each activation is a discrete ability).

Just keep priority and activate multiple times in response if you see opponent with 3 mana open one of which is G. Playing Repeal MD helps with the former problem instead. You don't want that monstrosity to come off the banned list.

[Solar Ice]

Re: Show and Tell, why not just drop Emrakul or Hive Mind (or any fat, game-winning monster such as Blightsteel Collossus) and win that turn/the next? Bringing Show and Tell into the argument seems arbitrary since that card enables tons of degenerate strategies.

Bargain costs six, and having double Dark Ritual for dropping it turn 2 is magical fantasy land (not to mention playing into a Daze, Spell Pierce, or FoW -- or even Misstep on the Rituals.) In Legacy, if you can resolve a CMC6 spell, you probably deserve to win the game.

The card is susceptible to both Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip (each activation is a discrete ability). Against aggro, the life loss can be relevant if you don't drop it early enough. Control would use the same tools to fight is as any 'regular' combo decks, and the combo mirror is typically just as draw dependent.

Enabling a new archetype doesn't seem that bad to me. I think if Show and Tell were banned, this card could possibly be safe to come off, even with 'enablers' like Enlightened Tutor, Replenish, and Academy Rector in the format.

Bargain is absurdly powerful, mate. Have you ever played the BW version during Urza's Block, with Soul Feast Skittering Skirge, Rector, Claws of Gix? It was frightnening then and these days its even more insane, Misstep or not. Aside from the days past, answers like Needle are useless unless dropped preemptively and Grip is almost completely useless since you just don't pass priority after resolving Bargain and just activate it a crap load of times (EDIT: Pwnd by Kiblast), after which removing Bargain doesn't matter at all. One can also argue that its better than Necropotence, since you get to draw the cards immediately and win on the spot. I'm not sure anyone can seriously argue for the unbanning of Necropotence. Bargain is in the same boat.

[wcm8]

Alright, it's my misunderstanding regarding the passing priority issue. And I suppose with lands like Ancient Tomb and whatnot, ramping into it by turn 3 wouldn't be that difficult. At what CMC would Bargain be 'fair' enough for legacy.. 8? Never?

I've just always been of the opinion that the less cards on the banned list, the better. I guess Bargain would be too format-warping though.

[Solar Ice]

Alright, it's my misunderstanding regarding the passing priority issue. And I suppose with lands like Ancient Tomb and whatnot, ramping into it by turn 3 wouldn't be that difficult. At what CMC would Bargain be 'fair' enough for legacy.. 8? Never?

I've just always been of the opinion that the less cards on the banned list, the better. I guess Bargain would be too format-warping though.

Most likely, an effect like "Pay 1 life: Draw a Card" without another drawback is too good for the format. there will always be ways to cheat something like that into play, and not worth the risk, even if I love Combo in general.

I'd love to play with Bargain as a 4-of and Mind's Desire for that matter, but they are absurdly good. I agree that the less cards on that B/R list the better, just that some are way too good to come off. There are definitely cards that could (and should) come of that list though.

[Gheizen64]

Bargain is absurdly powerful, mate. Have you ever the BW version during Urza's Block, with Soul Feast Skittering Skirge, Rector, Claws of Gix? It was frightnening then and these days its even more insane, Misstep or not. Aside from the days past, answers like Needle are useless unless dropped preemptively and Grip is almost completely useless since you just don't pass priority after resolving Bargain and just activate it a crap load of times (EDIT: PWND by Kiblast), after which removing Bargain doesn't matter at all. One can also argue that its better than Necropotence, since you get to draw the cards immediately and win on the spot. I'm not sure anyone can seriously argue for the unbanning of Necropotence. Bargain is in the same boat.

Bargain is nothing like Necro. Getting 6 mana already win you the game (hive mind) in a super heavy blue shell with 4 FoW and 4 Pacts. I'm not sure Bargain would be that much better. AdN at 6 would be a lot worse than at 5, probably it wouldn't even get played.
That BW deck you speak about was horrible in modern's day terms. Just like the old Academy decks. There is an interesting article by Menendian about the most infamous and broken deck in Vintage's history (here). The broken Academy (4 Academy, 4 Mana Crypt, 4 Mana Vault) was found worse than all other modern decks, even worse than Trix (but better than Keeper). Trix played 4 Necro and was found worse than a deck like BBS (blue bullshit powered by 4FoF). A lot of people often forgets that back in the days, combo was nothing like today, storm effectively ended an era. Even absurd things like Necro used 2/1 Knights or the discard1: add B Skirge to win with Drain Life.

Necro is retarded especially because it can be casted on T1. Honestly i think Bargain would probably be just slightly better than current Hivemind. Hivemind doesn't care about priority either, since you actually never get it before they can cast a pact.

[Solar Ice]

Bargain is nothing like Necro. Getting 6 mana already win you the game (hive mind) in a super heavy blue shell with 4 FoW and 4 Pacts. I'm not sure Bargain would be that much better. AdN at 6 would be a lot worse than at 5, probably it wouldn't even get played.
That BW deck you speak about was horrible in modern's day terms. Just like the old Academy decks. There is an interesting article by Menendian about the most infamous and broken deck in Vintage's history (here). The broken Academy (4 Academy, 4 Mana Crypt, 4 Mana Vault) was found worse than all other modern decks, even worse than Trix (but better than Keeper). Trix played 4 Necro and was found worse than a deck like BBS (blue bullshit powered by 4FoF). A lot of people often forgets that back in the days, combo was nothing like today, storm effectively ended an era. Even absurd things like Necro used 2/1 Knights or the discard1: add B Skirge to win with Drain Life.

Necro is retarded especially because it can be casted on T1. Honestly i think Bargain would probably be just slightly better than current Hivemind. Hivemind doesn't care about priority either, since you actually never get it before they can cast a pact.

Unlike Bargain, Hive Mind requires a lot of useless chaff (8+) to be played in the form of Pacts just so that when the enchantment hits the table you could win on the spot. A dedicated bargain deck can use far better resources to protect itself and has far more consistant draws. There is no way I see Bargain as being in the same/similar class as Hive Mind.

Obviously, old era combo and todays combo are two different kettle of fish. For its time, it was very good. But a card like Bargain can only be improved with todays card pool.

[Gheizen64]

8+? Most hive Mind decks play 7 non-negation Pacts. And where Bargain give you better deck density, Hive mind give you a better mana base, it's pitchable to Force and doesn't have to race aggro since you can win easily at 1 life.
I wouldn't be so sure that either one is that better than the other.

[Sims]

8+? Most hive Mind decks play 7 non-negation Pacts. And where Bargain give you better deck density, Hive mind give you a better mana base, it's pitchable to Force and doesn't have to race aggro since you can win easily at 1 life.
I wouldn't be so sure that either one is that better than the other.

7 Non-negation pacts + 4 Pact of negation that in many cases are useless outside of the combo turn. If I force your EoT Intuition and all you have is PoN as protection, you aren't casting that Pact so you can lose on your upkeep. There are plenty of situations where Pact is a dead card because without it you either cannot win, or the trigger will flat cause you to lose.

So that's 4 hivemind plus 7 cards that are dead without it and 4 more that are situationally dead without it.

[Gheizen64]

7 Non-negation pacts + 4 Pact of negation that in many cases are useless outside of the combo turn. If I force your EoT Intuition and all you have is PoN as protection, you aren't casting that Pact so you can lose on your upkeep. There are plenty of situations where Pact is a dead card because without it you either cannot win, or the trigger will flat cause you to lose.

So that's 4 hivemind plus 7 cards that are dead without it and 4 more that are situationally dead without it.

Yeah, 7 cards that are dead without Hivemind, but Necro would have a lot of situationally dead cards too then, things like rituals and petals and Tendrils that you'd have to play to win after drawing the cards, whereas Hive mind just need 1 card.

Something like:

4 Yawgmoth's bargain
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
4 Show and Tell
4 Dark ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Grim Monolith
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Pact of Negation
1 Tendrils of Agony

2 Flooded Strand
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

This probably doesn't have enough free mana source to actually win after a resolved bargain. Need to test a bit.

EDIT: list is a pile. You can't consistently win this low amount of free mana, you just can't play Bargain in a similar shell as Hivemind. Bargain need a storm-like shell for it, but then is it really better than AdN? Feeling say no, testing say i haven't got enough time now.

[Lancer]

Black Vise is a crap card, I dont know what Richard Garfield was thinking when he made the card. It didnt seem to work with the original rules 40 card deck/any number of copies and it didnt seemed to work with power 9 cards. The card did showed it's real strength with the absences of Sol Ring! After that every deck (including control was using black vise). Seriously, Legacy needs Sol Ring before Black Vise is unbanned (and we know Wizards is not going to unban Sol Ring). Black Vise is a major wreck and it doesnt do any good for anybody since the game will resolve to who gets black vise into play first and wrecking their mana sources second (Ports and Wastelands will fuck the fun out of the format.)

I love Brainstorm, I dont see it being as unbalanced before and Mental Misstep seems to keep brainstorm in check.

I also love Mental Misstep, it opening the format to more decks and creativity (this is where skill becomes part of the game), it allows non blue players the ability to say: Screw off Duress, take a hike Kozilek and fuckoff Thoughtseize! It stops Swords, Lackey, Dark Ritual and Top (to name a few). Best card for the Legacy format because players are now forced to protect their first turn assults.

Cards I like to see ban ~ nothing so far.

Cards I like to see come off the ban list:

I would love to see Demonic Consultation and Land Tax.

Demonic Consultation ~ I must be the only one in the MTG world has has been screwed by Demonic Consultation more then once; I dont see it being as good as many has fear.

Land Tax ~ I feel like most players about land tax.

[Gheizen64]

Black Vise is a crap card, I dont know what Richard Garfield was thinking when he made the card. It didnt seem to work with the original rules 40 card deck/any number of copies and it didnt seemed to work with power 9 cards. The card did showed it's real strength with the absences of Sol Ring! After that every deck (including control was using black vise). Seriously, Legacy needs Sol Ring before Black Vise is unbanned (and we know Wizards is not going to unban Sol Ring). Black Vise is a major wreck and it doesnt do any good for anybody since the game will resolve to who gets black vise into play first and wrecking their mana sources second (Ports and Wastelands will fuck the fun out of the format.)

I love Brainstorm, I dont see it being as unbalanced before and Mental Misstep seems to keep brainstorm in check.

I also love Mental Misstep, it opening the format to more decks and creativity (this is where skill becomes part of the game), it allows non blue players the ability to say: Screw off Duress, take a hike Kozilek and fuckoff Thoughtseize! It stops Swords, Lackey, Dark Ritual and Top (to name a few). Best card for the Legacy format because players are now forced to protect their first turn assults.

Cards I like to see ban ~ nothing so far.

Cards I like to see come off the ban list:

I would love to see Demonic Consultation and Land Tax.

Demonic Consultation ~ I must be the only one in the MTG world has has been screwed by Demonic Consultation more then once; I dont see it being as good as many has fear.

Land Tax ~ I feel like most players about land tax.

Vise sucks donkey ass. Vise was good when Keeper was good, 4 Strip were legal, Jameydae tome was a good card and neither Force nor Mental Misstep existed. Nowadays it's a conditional lava spike. Your "play vise T1, remove opponent from game" play is unfeasible, else everyone would go for it after a T1 nacatl. Prison doesn't exist in Legacy, and Vise isn't the card prison need to be viable anyway. Prison need a reliable way to prison people T1, something that can happen in Vintage to an extent but not in Legacy, at least until Workshop is banned.

It seems to me that a lot of people speak about cards that they haven't actually tested in years and have knee-jerk preemptive reactions (see bargain). I have, and i can tell you Vise sucks donkey ass and its best application nowadays is some RW super-aggressive deck since prison isn't viable. Your comparison of Vise to Sol Ring is laughable. Have you actually tested Sol in a modern legacy deck? I can tell you one thing, it goes as a 4xof in everything that isn't dredge. All the other decks would play it and change their gameplan accordingly. Yes even Zoo.

I'll go there and say that Vise is worse than Twist, Top and Tax. And probably around the power level of Cursed Scroll and Shrine of Burning Rage.

EDIT: Demonic consultation unbanned in a format withouth 1-of? Man i've got trolled.

[Solar Ice]

I also love Mental Misstep, it opening the format to more decks and creativity (this is where skill becomes part of the game), it allows non blue players the ability to say: Screw off Duress, take a hike Kozilek and fuckoff Thoughtseize! It stops Swords, Lackey, Dark Ritual and Top (to name a few). Best card for the Legacy format because players are now forced to protect their first turn assults.

It's printed in a colour whose only real weakness is the opponents first turn play while blue is on the draw. No more need to fear that Vial, Lackey, Seize, Nacatl, Ritual, Duress, etc. Cards that are an intergral part of an opposing decks strategy have lost a ton of punch with MM, to the point of not being competitive anymore. Whereas Blue- based decks only had 4 outs to an opponents first turn play while on the draw, they now have 8. That's a significant chance to ruin/slow down to the point of not being relevant a core plan of deck such as Goblins (fast creature threats with Lackey/Vial) or Elves (Mana ramp/fast creatures) or ANT/TES (discard/cantrips/mana accel). It made these decks - and many others - very weak to the point of being uncompetitive.

I agree with you on Black Vise. Demonic Consultation won't see the light of day in Legacy, imho. If they had banned Mystical (a tutor with Card Disadvantage as well as only searching for instants/sorceries) they won't give this format one that reliably puts any 3-4 copies of a card in your deck to your hand at instant speed for 1 mana.

The quoted part of your post is a large part of the problem about Mental Misstep. And it does exactly the opposite of "opening the format to more decks and creativity". For a very good summary of what that abomination did to the formats creativity, please read Hollywood's excellent post on the previous page.

[GGoober]

Lol, if Bargain cost 8 mana, it will most definitely STILL see play competitively as long as Show and Tell is around.

Show and Telling a Bargain is always going to be better than Show and Telling a Hive Mind. The previous requires you to have a life total of 10+ to gain some value, while the latter requires you to have another specific card in your hand (and in the right situation) to gain value. For most parts, I'll still say that a 2-card combo is always going to beat a 3-card combo even if life is an issue, especially when the 2-card combo of Show+Bargain draws you into a win. But the reality is: Bargain is 6 mana, and makes it even better that you don't even need to play it in a Show and Tell shell to win lol, oh and it's ages better than Ad Nauseam.

[Gheizen64]

Lol, if Bargain cost 8 mana, it will most definitely STILL see play competitively as long as Show and Tell is around.

Show and Telling a Bargain is always going to be better than Show and Telling a Hive Mind. The previous requires you to have a life total of 10+ to gain some value, while the latter requires you to have another specific card in your hand (and in the right situation) to gain value. For most parts, I'll still say that a 2-card combo is always going to beat a 3-card combo even if life is an issue, especially when the 2-card combo of Show+Bargain draws you into a win. But the reality is: Bargain is 6 mana, and makes it even better that you don't even need to play it in a Show and Tell shell to win lol, oh and it's ages better than Ad Nauseam.

I pledge you to show me a shell where the card is as bonkers as you say good sir. As you noticed, my previous list was a pile.