All B/R update speculation.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

There will always be an objectively strongest card in the format.

No there won't.

[Koby]

4 Show and tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Soul Spike
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Tendrils of Agony
16 lands with fetches

[Amon Amarth]

Academy Rector is a pretty good place to start.

[Rizso]

I remember when Bargain was a standard deck then you used Academy Rector and Phyrexian Tower to get fast Bargain into play. Thought in that standard you could play Yawgmoth's Will.

[menace13]

I pledge you to show me a shell where the card is as bonkers as you say good sir. As you noticed, my previous list was a pile.

I think the deck wants 8 counters and as many accels as it can get away with

4 City of Traitors
4 Underground Sea
6 Fetches

4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 PoNegation
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder/Intuition/Enlightened Tutor
4 Show and Tell
4 Soul Spike
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain

[sdematt]

I personally think the banned list is fine as is at the moment. But, if they HAD to ban a card otherwise the world would end or something, I think Show and Tell would be likeliest candidate. I'm not saying it should be, but if they did ban a card on September 20th and it was Show and Tell, I wouldn't be totally surprised.

-Matt

[Gheizen64]

4 Show and tell
3 Grim Monolith
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Soul Spike
4 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Tendrils of Agony
16 lands with fetches

This actually is a good case. Tested it a bit, seems slightly favored against Hive mind (SnT on emrakul is an autowin for Bargain) but slightly worse than it against BUG still and control variants (more reliance on 1cc, no FoW/Pact to protect SnT for resolving, a single target discard or Clique is hard on it) and aggro (no out against a G1 Gaddock, if it doesn't combo out before T3 life total get too low especially against fireblasts and the such).

I'll test a bit more, now i need sleep and thursday i've got an exam so no testing for tomorrow.

I personally think the banned list is fine as is at the moment. But, if they HAD to ban a card otherwise the world would end or something, I think Show and Tell would be likeliest candidate. I'm not saying it should be, but if they did ban a card on September 20th and it was Show and Tell, I wouldn't be totally surprised.

-Matt

I agree, SnT is exactly the kind of card WotC loves to ban. Enabler, cheat mana, "limit" permanent design (oh poor emmy, stupid SnT make you stupid lol).

But i don't think SnT will get the axe. It counter itself too effectively to ever become a prevalent force in the meta.

[Zilla]

No there won't.

Yes there will.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yes there will.

No, there won't.

Most formats don't have an "objectively best card." Generally power balance is fine enough that at any given tournament the precise mix of decks being played will determine what the best card is at that tournament, but there's no "best card" in the format at large.

Brainstorm is the objectively best card in Legacy because it's far too much ahead of the next best card for the makeup of a given tournament to matter much. Even if the field is all playing Mental Misstep, Brainstorm is still great because you're playing Misstep and it helps you get rid of them later in the game when you want business.

[Honorik]

Lets hope for Mental Misstep ban. This card just ruined the format.

Legacy is a format right now where the only option it's to play blue, to play Zoo or a deck that dodge this freaking card like BW Stoneblade. This card just killed all non blue aggro strategies, except Zoo.

The card it's banned from the start in Modern with full right. A card that counter every relevant 1 CC spell almost without any drawback on turn one is something that can cause many troubles in the future, it's just make the deck building stagnant. Dow we really want such a card to exist ?

[Amon Amarth]

What I'd like to see come off this go round:

Goblin Recruiter: Because he's awesome. And it actually could happen since the deck has disappeared, more or less.

Land Tax: Like that one guy you meet that claims his "swamp and forest deck would crush you" he's wrong and so is this still being banned. Plus Parfait is super duper cool.

Black Vise: Pretty sure that SFM > Batterskull makes this pretty bad. Beyond that, this isn't 1995 and there aren't any glacially slow decks that keep a ton of cards in their hand. Pretty sure it's usually worse than Nacatl, Ape, and other Kitties. Burn would like it I'm sure! Hell, it might even enable something like Shrapnel Blast in that deck! Exciting!

Mind Twist: Slow but a great tool against some decks. Hymn is as good if not better most of the time. Makes cards like Spell Pierce, which people should already be playing more, and Misdirection viable.

Earthcraft: I'm a little iffy on this one only because I haven't played with it in forever. Would be good in Enchantress and maybe Elves. It's a fairly slow combo that's answered easily.

Something like Frantic Search may or may not be too good but we don't really need to make Blue decks any better. It can stay.

[Amon Amarth]

edit:double post

[Lancer]

It's printed in a colour whose only real weakness is the opponents first turn play while blue is on the draw. No more need to fear that Vial, Lackey, Seize, Nacatl, Ritual, Duress, etc. Cards that are an intergral part of an opposing decks strategy have lost a ton of punch with MM, to the point of not being competitive anymore. Whereas Blue- based decks only had 4 outs to an opponents first turn play while on the draw, they now have 8. That's a significant chance to ruin/slow down to the point of not being relevant a core plan of deck such as Goblins (fast creature threats with Lackey/Vial) or Elves (Mana ramp/fast creatures) or ANT/TES (discard/cantrips/mana accel). It made these decks - and many others - very weak to the point of being uncompetitive.

We see things differently.

I see Mental Misstep as the introduction of Force of Will. Lets pretend that Force of Will was never made and suddenly wizards just made Force of Will, there are going to be players upset with the idea of a free counterspell; competitive decks will suddenly become (uncompetitive) and new decks will suddenly become competitive.

I agree with you on Black Vise. Demonic Consultation won't see the light of day in Legacy, imho. If they had banned Mystical (a tutor with Card Disadvantage as well as only searching for instants/sorceries) they won't give this format one that reliably puts any 3-4 copies of a card in your deck to your hand at instant speed for 1 mana.

Like I said I must be the only player screwed by the card more then once. I dont see it becoming legal either.

The quoted part of your post is a large part of the problem about Mental Misstep. And it does exactly the opposite of "opening the format to more decks and creativity". For a very good summary of what that abomination did to the formats creativity, please read Hollywood's excellent post on the previous page.

I'll check out Hollywood's post.

@ Gheizen64... I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.

[(nameless one)]

@ Gheizen64... I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.

It might also make Browbeat playable.

[Zilla]

I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.

Heaven forbid they make red playable, right? ;p

I personally would love to see Black Vice come off the list. It's not like the format isn't 100% prepared for it with Misstep. In most decks it would be subpar, and in a few decks that specifically build synergy around it it would be strong but (probably) not busted.

[Gheizen64]

We see things differently.

I see Mental Misstep as the introduction of Force of Will. Lets pretend that Force of Will was never made and suddenly wizards just made Force of Will, there are going to be players upset with the idea of a free counterspell; competitive decks will suddenly become (uncompetitive) and new decks will suddenly become competitive.




Like I said I must be the only player screwed by the card more then once. I dont see it becoming legal either.



I'll check out Hollywood's post.

@ Gheizen64... I love burn but I'll feel guilty playing Black Vise turn 1 and then Goblin Guide and then forcing the player to draw that extra land, it would really suck if I hit him with 2 Goblin Guides and force that player to draw 2 lands.

God forbid i do one more damage to you with Goblin Guide. And then you don't get mana screwed ever again because i'm fixing your draws so there is actually no chance i kill you with vise.

Vise is similar to Lackey in the sense that it is exponentially better if you can play it T1. The point is a T1 lackey is usually a 3-4 mana boost + anti-permission +1 damage if unanswered (SGC or Ringleader), Vise is a lava spike on the play and a shock that can hit only players on the draw. People don't keep cards in hand in this format. Just no.

What's even worse is that you can play Lackey in goblin because that deck has an absurd amount of gas. It never run out of it. So running 4 late-game dead draws isn't that bad. Sligh can't afford that, and Vise is not simply bad past T1, it get USELESS T2. Useless. Not to speak T2 or later. It's a shit card. In a format with MM too? Laughable.

Want to try an hypotetical Sligh list with it to test my words? Try this.

4 Black Vise
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lava Spike
2 Shrapnel Blast
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
4 Goblin Guide
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 Great Furnace

[Lancer]

It might also make Browbeat playable.

That would be funny, take 5 damage or I'll force you to draw 3 cards.

Zilla@ Burn is already strong.

I guess I see Black Vise as a thoughtless card.

Playing stasis, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Playing Countertop, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Stax... Black Vise

Zoo... Black Vise

White Weenie... Black Vise

Elf, Merfolk, Sligh, etc... Black Vise

Burn... (need I say)

Sorry, I dont see the card being good for Legacy.

[Gheizen64]

That would be funny, take 5 damage or I'll force you to draw 3 cards.

Zilla@ Burn is already strong.

I guess I see Black Vise as a thoughtless card.

Playing stasis, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Playing Countertop, need a cheap kill... Black Vise.

Stax... Black Vise

Zoo... Black Vise

White Weenie... Black Vise

Elf, Merfolk, Sligh, etc... Black Vise

Burn... (need I say)

Sorry, I dont see the card being good for Legacy.

Stasis isn't a deck and wouldn't be even with Vise

Stax isn't a deck and wouldn't be even with Vise

Countertop wouldn't play it unless maybe as a SB card for the mirror

Zoo wouldn't play it

Weenie wouldn't play it

Merfolk and Goblin wouldn't play it

Burn and sligh could play it

Beware of burn breaking the format i guess.

[(nameless one)]

I can see Black Vise in Stasis and Stax.

CounterTop? Its not like they have no option in casting their spells (though it will get countered anyways). Goyf (or ThopterSwords combo) is still the main beater in any CounterTop shell.

Zoo? You'll be dead before Black Vise is effective. Besides, what would you remove in Zoo to make Black Vise work? Lightning Bolt? Chain Lightning? A cat?

White Weenie? Like D&T? Hatebear.dec? Maverick? Maybe D&T since it conventionally slower but why here?

Other Swarm/Tribal Aggro strategies? I don't know. Maybe Slight (since its similar to Burn).

Hell, even it doesn't even fix Stax's problem which is consistency and a fast means to beat the opponent before the opponent recovers.

I don't know about Black Vise but this discussion sounds like the Entomb discussion back in summer 2009.

[Gheizen64]

I can see Black Vise in Stasis and Stax.

CounterTop? Its not like they have no option in casting their spells (though it will get countered anyways). Goyf (or ThopterSwords combo) is still the main beater in any CounterTop shell.

Zoo? You'll be dead before Black Vise is effective. Besides, what would you remove in Zoo to make Black Vise work? Lightning Bolt? Chain Lightning? A cat?

White Weenie? Like D&T? Hatebear.dec? Maverick? Maybe D&T since it conventionally slower but why here?

Other Swarm/Tribal Aggro strategies? I don't know. Maybe Slight (since its similar to Burn).

Hell, even it doesn't even fix Stax's problem which is consistency and a fast means to beat the opponent before the opponent recovers.

I don't know about Black Vise but this discussion sounds like the Entomb discussion back in summer 2009.

Except Entomb actually is a good card and created a deck that was also nerfed by bans. People knew that Reanimator was a real deck even before Entomb was unbanned. Stasis and Stax aren't real decks in Legacy. Vise isn't played in any kind of stax in Vintage. Sligh exist but isn't near Tier1, and Burn would probably not play it because it is a dead draw.