View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 501 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 4014514914974984995005015025035045055115516011001 ... LastLast
Results 10,001 to 10,020 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #10001
    Bands with Others
    menace13's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2009
    Location

    NY, NY
    Posts

    1,220

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    That wasn't his point and you know that.
    Barook is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Oh, it's a shift. From blue to blue. Well done, mate. Well done.
    Lol!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
    Respect my shine bitch!

  2. #10002

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Oh, it's a shift. From blue to blue. Well done, mate. Well done.
    Just going to go on record and say that I don't care what color of mana is being tapped to do things, so long as cool things are being done. When I look at that top 16 and see a bunch of decks doing a bunch of different things, I really don't care if they're all accomplishing that with Islands.

    Those decks are all radically different, and strategic diversity is more important to me than worrying about how many plains were tapped in a top 16.

  3. #10003
    Force of Will is my bitch
    Finn's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2004
    Location

    South Florida
    Posts

    2,979

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlschuma View Post
    Just going to go on record and say that I don't care what color of mana is being tapped to do things, so long as cool things are being done. When I look at that top 16 and see a bunch of decks doing a bunch of different things, I really don't care if they're all accomplishing that with Islands.

    Those decks are all radically different, and strategic diversity is more important to me than worrying about how many plains were tapped in a top 16.
    Right, so exactly as I said then. You can have Spaceballs-the Lunchbox, Spaceballs-the...as long as you start with blue. Do you not see where this is a problem? I was too hard on you, but I liked this conversation better when at least the opinions expressed had been thought-out before being typed. Way back then (a few days ago), we could at least agree that there was a problem and disagree about what to do about it.

    Whatever the case, wizards had better get on the ball and fix this Vintage-in-the-making mess they have created. They can't ban the real culprit, Brainstorm because it is a holy fucking cow. So they are going to have to figure out new cards to print that curb its power, and that of similar cantrips better than Spirit of the Labyrinth. And they will need lots of them, like an entire cycle of cards specifically designed with that goal in mind from the outset. Yes, it is a lot. But every time they print another broke-ass blue card it just makes Brainstorm even more ensconced as the king of the format.

    Honestly, what they need is a Fix Legacy set. In addition to the anti-cantrip cycle, they need a cycle of lands that make people feel less dependent upon duals - fetchable lands that are better or worse depending on gamestate. In the grand scheme of things, this is not a hard task, really. It seems like a hassle, but for those of us who can see this from the long view, it is becoming increasingly necessary. And once it is done, it is done. The format will be forever freed from its shackles.

    But for any of this to happen, wotc has to give a shit. I can't imagine how it is possible that they could not give a shit about their own product. But they have demonstrated many times in recent years that they prefer Legacy to take a back seat.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  4. #10004
    Pray for Rain
    Tammit67's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2010
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA, USA
    Posts

    1,534

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    But for any of this to happen, wotc has to give a shit. I can't imagine how it is possible that they could not give a shit about their own product. But they have demonstrated many times in recent years that they prefer Legacy to take a back seat.
    There seems to be a disconnect. Their own product isn't the 20 years of cards everyone else has developed. It is solely Modern, Limited and most importantly Standard. Anything else is gravy.

    They certainly give a shit, just not in the way you want them to. Their focus is clearly elsewhere and it shows in their set design
    Matt Bevenour in real life

  5. #10005
    Member
    YamiJoey's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    Bury, Manchester, England
    Posts

    715

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Jund, Mono-White, and Mono-Red are all very powerful decks. Saying the format is all Blue is a little silly, but when you have a game designed around the luck of the draw, being able to have as many shots at that draw as possible is always going to be better than not. These other decks all play a strategy where every card in the deck seems to do something, mainly attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by useL View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by twndomn View Post
    If you pay me or give me some benefits, I might consider writing reports.
    Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
    The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Einherjer View Post
    That's.... that's not how deckbuilding works.

  6. #10006
    Say no to creatures.

    Join Date

    May 2013
    Posts

    387

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    I decided even better!
    Realizing how this magical "entertainment" restrains me, how the dull metagame with its robotic belt conveyor decks tires me, how the omnipresent masonic art and concepts bother me, and how the whole community disgusts me, I finally sold even the last 300 cards.
    Feel free to waste your life in unending battles on stack and whatnot. My three children deserve better father then an "I wanna feel the power through my veins" junkie that has a boner over a piece of cardboard designed by some obese Rosenwasser "game designer".
    I think what you're doing wrong is spending too much time on the forum and getting too involved in the "discussions". I did that briefly before and it certainly didn't do any favors for my love of the game. Just ignore people and love/play/collect/bitch about the game anyway you enjoy.
    Legacy: Rituals
    Vintage: Drains

  7. #10007

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlschuma View Post
    Because let's pretend the return of Shardless, Tarmogoyf, Kird Ape etc. don't represent a meta shift. Not to mention Storm, S&T, and the Delver/Blade variants being completely different decks from a strategic standpoint. And Miracles doesn't even make a top 20 mention.
    You know what that shows? That BS/Ponder/Probe/FoW is so much better than anything else you can be doing right now that you can literally play Kird Ape as a threat and it doesn't matter at all.

    Just like last week, where you take that same crap and swap out the creatures for terrible combo pieces.

  8. #10008
    Force of Will is my bitch
    Finn's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2004
    Location

    South Florida
    Posts

    2,979

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiJoey View Post
    Jund, Mono-White, and Mono-Red are all very powerful decks. Saying the format is all Blue is a little silly, but when you have a game designed around the luck of the draw, being able to have as many shots at that draw as possible is always going to be better than not. These other decks all play a strategy where every card in the deck seems to do something, mainly attack.
    Ok, so basics here. I began with 3/4 of the decks are blue and feature the same card filtering mechanic as the primary engine of the deck. These include combo, control, and aggro decks.

    Being able to augment the draw step with cantrips is NOT always better than other ways to design a deck or else every format would have our issues. The opportunity cost of that is mana spent, extra card in the graveyard, etc. Yet of all the thousands of different ways you could conceivably construct a magic deck, this particular method continues to occupy majority of top 8 spots. It was not always thus.

    How is this hard to understand?
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  9. #10009
    Member
    Dosferra's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2013
    Location

    Stockholm, Sweden
    Posts

    62

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It feels a bit superfluous to write anything in this thread as everything seems to have been stated a multitude of times already, but here goes.

    I’m of the same opinion as Julian, while the blue cantrip shell is nearly ubiquitous, it isn’t necessarily the most powerful, or at least not overpowered.
    It’s just that it fits into the widest range of decks/archetypes, by a immense margin.

    My, perhaps unenlightened, view is that a “real” deck needs either massive card draw/advantage (Glimpse, Loam, CB, Chalice etc.), tutors (GSZ, IT, Intuition, etc.), top manipulation (cantrips, Sylvan, Top, etc.) or at the very least extreme redundancy (Burn, D&T).
    You need a lot of these effects, preferably from different categories, i.e cantrips+TC, Loam+tutors, Glimpse+GSZ.
    The less a deck fulfills these criteria, the less chance it has of winning a large tournament.
    Loam, Infernal Tutor and Glimpse can only go into very specific kinds of decks, cantrips on the other hand fit right into most decks.

    What does this mean? Well playing a deck with 1/3 lands, 1/3 threats and 1/3 answers with top decking as the way to get the cards you want isn’t really what you want to be doing. I hear that’s how it works in some others formats though, so if that’s your thing.. :)
    I actually like the meta as it is right now, but I’m in europe and not the US of A, so there isn’t a 40%+ concentration of delver/blade/pyro here, however if I just cared about winning I would kind of wish that there was..

    With all that said, Brainstorm is by far the most powerful card in legacy and it’s not because it’s a cantrip, but because it can do a million different other things that no other card can do.
    And I don’t like that BS+Ponder is becoming (has become) the P9 of legacy, but there are (a few) viable alternatives.

    As Finn points out, Wizards could EASILY fix this with new printings (alternatives and answers in commander sets), but currently, for some inexplicable reason, this seems completely beyond the capabilities or will of Wizards.


    tl;dr+ps: I usually don't play BS decks. I don’t think that the blue shell is overpowered but it's a bit monotonous when 3/4 decks play it. I hope wizards prints fun and powerful cards in other colors/for other archetypes but nothing leads me to believe that they will.

  10. #10010
    Member
    Barook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Germany, Germering, Munich
    Posts

    7,491

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiJoey View Post
    These other decks all play a strategy where every card in the deck seems to do something, mainly attack.
    Yet those plans are still overall worse than the "blue shell" plan in terms of consistency, aside from Burn.

    I would love to read an article about somebody sifting through the numbers, looking how each deck type performed against various other decks and so on, while drawing conclusions from that.

    So, in the end, Brainstorm didn't over- or underperform in this tournament as far as Day 2 was concerned, but roughly kept the 70% share, which in itself is a rather questionable number.

    And I really want to see the maindeckable Brainstorm hate that is actually powerful enough to dent Brainstorm & consorts without the Brainstorm faction whining about how OP it is. Edit: Made a post in the shitty card creation thread to see what people can come up with.

  11. #10011
    Some dipshit of a Moderator.
    Dice_Box's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    A Tabernacle in some random Valley.
    Posts

    4,843

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Holy shit, SCG released lists down to 120th place. I am sure now you will all have plenty of information to discet, twist, ignore or otherwise just disregard as you all see fit but for me, that's dam exciting.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  12. #10012
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2010
    Location

    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts

    548

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    35 decks non blue decks from 120 presented (85 are blue'ish) SCG mostly:
    - D&T
    - Lands
    - MUD
    - Dredge
    - Burn
    - Maverick
    - Junk
    Last edited by Fatal; 01-12-2015 at 11:25 AM.

  13. #10013

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dosferra View Post
    ...

    With all that said, Brainstorm is by far the most powerful card in legacy and it’s not because it’s a cantrip, but because it can do a million different other things that no other card can do.

    ...
    Quoted for truth.

    That said, a big part of the 'no other card can do' aspect is that Brainstorm is a low cc instant.

  14. #10014

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    35 decks non blue decks from 120 presented (95 are blue'ish) SCG mostly:
    Edit: I did the math wrong...

    95/120 ~ 80%

    If the format were primarly 3-color decks, we'd expect 80% of them to contain blue. 80% is probably a bit high since there are 1 and 2 color decks, but having blue cards in 80% of the decks is not ipso facto outrageous.
    Last edited by rufus; 01-12-2015 at 11:20 AM.

  15. #10015
    3-point-shooter

    Join Date

    Feb 2006
    Posts

    528

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    95/120 ~ 80%

    If the format were primarly 3-color decks, we'd expect 80% of them to contain blue. 80% is probably a bit high since there are 1 and 2 color decks, but having blue cards in 80% of the decks is not ipso facto outrageous.
    If the format were primarly 3-color decks, we'd expect 60% of them to contain blue...
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

  16. #10016
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    The Arctic
    Posts

    323

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    95/120 ~ 80%

    If the format were primarly 3-color decks, we'd expect 80% of them to contain blue. 80% is probably a bit high since there are 1 and 2 color decks, but having blue cards in 80% of the decks is not ipso facto outrageous.
    I am pretty sure there was a mistake in his post because 120 - 35 = 85 or 70.8333...%
    in a 3 color meta 70% is high, but not that much higher than the expected 60%.

  17. #10017
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2010
    Location

    Warsaw, Poland
    Posts

    548

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    yeap - fixed thx for pointing.

  18. #10018
    Site Contributor
    Teluin's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2013
    Posts

    291

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    35 decks non blue decks from 120 presented (85 are blue'ish) SCG mostly:
    - D&T
    - Lands
    - MUD
    - Dredge
    - Burn
    - Maverick
    - Junk
    Out of curiosity, including the decks with blue in them, what were the numbers of each other colour in the top 120?

  19. #10019
    plays Mountains
    Ace/Homebrew's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2011
    Location

    Philadelphia Area
    Posts

    2,257

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fatal View Post
    35 decks non blue decks from 120 presented:
    - Burn
    2 of the 3 Burn decks splashed for Treasure Cruise.

  20. #10020
    Member

    Join Date

    Jan 2014
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    159

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Sound like the right Idea. Splashing Cruise into a deck which can empty his hand so fast is great. Btw this does not make the deck blue.

    Also evaluating the sturation of a color on the basis of only 1 event is not the best thing to do. I think we can start to talk about this when we get
    more tournement lists like this. But for the moment all you can do is wild guessing because even 120 decks are not enough to draw conclusions about the
    whole legacy metagame out of them.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 364 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 364 guests)