All B/R update speculation.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Btw this does not make the deck blue.

Burn, by Erik Higbie.
Burn, by Will O'Neil.

I understand your meaning (or at least I believe I do... I'll state it just to be sure): The lists do not use the ubiquitous shell and can function almost unhindered without drawing a blue source of mana.

But to say the lists are non-blue doesn't feel honest either.

Also evaluating the sturation of a color on the basis of only 1 event is not the best thing to do. I think we can start to talk about this when we get
more tournement lists like this. But for the moment all you can do is wild guessing because even 120 decks are not enough to draw conclusions about the
whole legacy metagame out of them.

We can still talk about the meta for that event, or the Philadelphia area, or the Northeast US pretty accurately.
Will you let us know when we're allowed to discuss color saturation without it being wild guessing?

[Teveshszat]

We can still talk about the meta for that event, or the Philadelphia area, or the Northeast US pretty accurately.
Will you let us know when we're allowed to discuss color saturation without it being wild guessing?

You don´t need me for this. You just have to look into statistics to find the appropirate number of decks played from the same type to draw the right conclusion.

I understand your meaning (or at least I believe I do... I'll state it just to be sure): The lists do not use the ubiquitous shell and can function almost unhindered without drawing a blue source of mana.

But to say the lists are non-blue doesn't feel honest either.

Yes right. Burn is not blue because it uses 1 blue card. A deck is blue when it is building his strategy mainly on blue cards and burn doesn´t do this so for me its not a blue deck but a red deck with some blue cards.

[twndomn]

SCG's PA Legacy Open shows great data. In a 560 players 2 Day tournament, we observe 120 players who made day 2. Out of the 120 decks, 57 decks contain TC, that's 47%.
Check my query here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...num=0&limit=25

Out of curiosity, I change the query to Brainstorm for this tournament, we observe 83 out of 120, which is 69%.
Here's the query: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...num=0&limit=25

For ridiculous reasons, I change the query to SDT in reponse to the poll, we observe 16 out of 120, which is 13%. Seriously guys, don't abuse the poll options.
Here's the query: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...Show+Decks&p=1

This is just one tournament, we'll get another SCG Legacy Open in less than a month, should be interesting to do a comparison, regardless TC gets the banning or not.

The blue vs non-blue classification is just pointless. The Blue aspect in Miracles is miles apart from the Blue aspect in Storm, even though both decks run Brainstorm.

[Sylphnir]

For ridiculous reasons, I change the query to SDT in reponse to the poll, we observe 16 out of 120, which is 13%. Seriously guys, don't abuse the poll options.

No abuse, the poll's just over 5 years old. Nobody cares about it anymore.

[Lord Seth]

You know, I would be interested in a new poll on what cards people want banned, if only to actually have some more hard data on what the community in general thinks.

[Kanti]

I think keeping the old poll around is good. Shows a time where people thought Goyf should have been banned (that topic sure made rounds around these parts). Who really gives a shit about Goyf now? Go-go super bear.

What I don't get is how some people who want to ban Brainstorm want to unban Survival, even if they ban Vengevine. Cantrip.dec vs Tutor.dec. Any decent green deck is forced to run GSZ nowadays. How is that too different from "the blue shell"? God, I hate that phrase. It has caught on like the plague. It's like were all politicians, and learned a new catch-phrase. Wish I could make a montage of people just going "The blue shell, we've got to deal with the blue shell" endlessly.

I do agree that blue is dominant. Too domiinant right now. Wizards should be careful of what they print next, and not neccesarily build specific non-blue answers but make an effort to stop printing powerful cards that could be used vs blue, only to see blue decks splash those very cards. I think the way cantrips work in the game they are always going to make up some of the most powerful decks. There is a reason Turbo Xerox was so revolutionary.

[Barook]

I think keeping the old poll around is good. Shows a time where people thought Goyf should have been banned (that topic sure made rounds around these parts). Who really gives a shit about Goyf now? Go-go super bear.

Goyf was a problem on release where even Merfolk was splashing for it.

It took many years until they printed cards that surpass it (e.g. SFM + Batterskull) and cards that actually solve it (Scavening Ooze, DRS, AD, RiP).

[FoolofaTook]

Goyf was a problem on release where even Merfolk was splashing for it.

It took many years until they printed cards that surpass it (e.g. SFM + Batterskull) and cards that actually solve it (Scavening Ooze, DRS, AD, RiP).

Yes, Goyf became the wall against creature aggro that let the blue shell develop into what it is today. Goblins was a real problem until Goyf was printed.

SDT is in the poll where it is because of CounterTop and CounterTop used Goyf as the early wall and finisher of choice.

[Teluin]

35 decks non blue decks from 120 presented (85 are blue'ish) SCG mostly:
- D&T
- Lands
- MUD
- Dredge
- Burn
- Maverick
- Junk

Out of curiosity, including the decks with blue in them, what were the numbers of each other colour in the top 120?

[Lemnear]

Out of curiosity, including the decks with blue in them, what were the numbers of each other colour in the top 120?

It's easy to tell that Red was color #2 and Black the bottom of the colorwheel

[Dice_Box]

That's a fairly big change from a few years back where Black was the strongest secondary colour by far.

[Lemnear]

That's a fairly big change from a few years back where Black was the strongest secondary colour by far.

It's not that the color got any love since DRS and Decay which are hybrid anyways. Before them? Thoughtseize in Oct 2007? (Mind I'm not counting stuff like Griselbrand as his color does not matter)

[Kanti]

Goyf was a problem on release where even Merfolk was splashing for it.

It took many years until they printed cards that surpass it (e.g. SFM + Batterskull) and cards that actually solve it (Scavening Ooze, DRS, AD, RiP).

I've been around the block. I know why Goyf was so revolutionary. He obsoleted more than 1/2 the creatures in Magic, and set a new standard for an aggresive 2-drop. I mostly played old extended back then, and Goyf+CBalance was godly there too, where Remy Fortier took down PT:Valencia with a UBG CounterTop build. Goyf changed Thresh, then came Delver, who changed Thresh, and now Treasure Cruise came and took Threshold decks in a whole new direction again. Someone has a banner here that reads something funny like Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Goyfy-Pop, Goyf Goblins, It's the Goyf, etc. Gives a pretty good impression on just how warping people though Goyf was.

Point is it shows that there are two ways of doing thing. Either ban Goyf and not have to deal with it at all, or keep designing cards and eventually Goyf will just be getting chump blocked by elemental tokens, and you'lle be wondering why you even have him in your deck.

What would I like to see happen? Wizards print cards that would let Jund, and Junk decks flourish. I don't think either (Punishing Jund, or Junk. Normal Jund probably coudn't cut it) is far off doing well in this meta. There were already a couple of Junk decks finishing top 16 in a recent SCG. Couple more cards for them, maybe something for Maverick, and slap some Merfolk and Goblins some goodies as well as those are historic decks that anyone can get behind and make people discuss how crappy tribal decks are, and forget about banning BS for a second.

[mikeshimoji]

I've been around the block. I know why Goyf was so revolutionary. He obsoleted more than 1/2 the creatures in Magic, and set a new standard for an aggresive 2-drop. I mostly played old extended back then, and Goyf+CBalance was godly there too, where Remy Fortier took down PT:Valencia with a UBG CounterTop build. Goyf changed Thresh, then came Delver, who changed Thresh, and now Treasure Cruise came and took Threshold decks in a whole new direction again. Someone has a banner here that reads something funny like Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Goyfy-Pop, Goyf Goblins, It's the Goyf, etc. Gives a pretty good impression on just how warping people though Goyf was.

Point is it shows that there are two ways of doing thing. Either ban Goyf and not have to deal with it at all, or keep designing cards and eventually Goyf will just be getting chump blocked by elemental tokens, and you'lle be wondering why you even have him in your deck.

What would I like to see happen? Wizards print cards that would let Jund, and Junk decks flourish. I don't think either (Punishing Jund, or Junk. Normal Jund probably coudn't cut it) is far off doing well in this meta. There were already a couple of Junk decks finishing top 16 in a recent SCG. Couple more cards for them, maybe something for Maverick, and slap some Merfolk and Goblins some goodies as well as those are historic decks that anyone can get behind and make people discuss how crappy tribal decks are, and forget about banning BS for a second.

You know, even as a blue shell hater, this makes a whole lot of sense. I might be one example of a convert from these forums. I have been reading for the pure entertainment of it, seeing people rage over pieces of paper, but some arguments are quite moving. I was advocating for a ban (though never bs or fow), but I think I would rather have wizards see the problem and print more oozes and councils judgement. It really does excite me being a long time Maverick and d and t lover to know that the future can be bright.

This of course is assuming that more printings like abrupt decay is coming down the pipe. If so, I can wait. Though, I still don't know about treasure cruise...

[Zombie]

print more oozes and councils judgement.

Oozes, yes, Judgment, no god no.

[mikeshimoji]

Oozes, yes, Judgment, no god no.

Haha! Merely an example my friend. It does, very annoyingly, deal with tnn :)

[force_of_phil]

You know, even as a blue shell hater, this makes a whole lot of sense. I might be one example of a convert from these forums. I have been reading for the pure entertainment of it, seeing people rage over pieces of paper, but some arguments are quite moving. I was advocating for a ban (though never bs or fow), but I think I would rather have wizards see the problem and print more oozes and councils judgement. It really does excite me being a long time Maverick and d and t lover to know that the future can be bright.

The problem with this approach to the management of the format is that it would require a very careful and intentional crafting of future cards by WotC to be able to play out in a positive way. These future printings would need to be on the power level of the cards that blue has access to, help non-blue decks function in a way that is relevant in eternal, and not be best in the blue shell.

The third requirement is especially difficult to meet, since the blue shell finds, protects, and answers individually powerful cards better than any other approach, making it the default home for "pushed" cards. Non-blue eternal decks are almost exclusively based on incidental synergies, rather than the "find individually powerful card, protect individually powerful card/answer opponent's individually powerful card, repeat until win" macro-strategy that defines the (blue) bulk of the format. That's one of the reasons that those decks are so much fun, but it's unfortunately not something that can be easily designed, and for every Glimpse of Nature there are a dozen pushed non-blue cards that go straight into blue decks.

[FoolofaTook]

What would I like to see happen? Wizards print cards that would let Jund, and Junk decks flourish. I don't think either (Punishing Jund, or Junk. Normal Jund probably coudn't cut it) is far off doing well in this meta. There were already a couple of Junk decks finishing top 16 in a recent SCG. Couple more cards for them, maybe something for Maverick, and slap some Merfolk and Goblins some goodies as well as those are historic decks that anyone can get behind and make people discuss how crappy tribal decks are, and forget about banning BS for a second.

Jund isn't what they need to fix. Junk, Boros and Bw Suicide are what they need to fix. Jund would slot in just fine in a meta where more than half the lists had the same basic consistency issues it has. It slotted in just fine as recently as a year ago when half the lists weren't blue. It's in a 70% blue meta that Jund becomes a shotgun in an Uzi and rifle fight.

[FoolofaTook]

The problem with this approach to the management of the format is that it would require a very careful and intentional crafting of future cards by WotC to be able to play out in a positive way. These future printings would need to be on the power level of the cards that blue has access to, help non-blue decks function in a way that is relevant in eternal, and not be best in the blue shell.

The third requirement is especially difficult to meet, since the blue shell finds, protects, and answers individually powerful cards better than any other approach, making it the default home for "pushed" cards. Non-blue eternal decks are almost exclusively based on incidental synergies, rather than the "find individually powerful card, protect individually powerful card/answer opponent's individually powerful card, repeat until win" macro-strategy that defines the (blue) bulk of the format. That's one of the reasons that those decks are so much fun, but it's unfortunately not something that can be easily designed, and for every Glimpse of Nature there are a dozen pushed non-blue cards that go straight into blue decks.

This is exactly right. Which have been the most influential creatures in Legacy printed over the last 7 years? Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, Vengevine, Noble Heirarch, Stoneforge Mystic, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Griselband, Deathrite Shaman, Delver of Secrets, True-Name nemesis and Young Pyromancer. All of them with the exception of Vengevine have immediately been incorporated into the blue shell and collectively they are one of the main reasons that the blue shell now has become established as the primary shell to use creatures to kill your opponents, with apologies to the creature combo list in Elves and the creature control list in D&T.

[Lemnear]

Jund isn't what they need to fix. Junk, Boros and Bw Suicide are what they need to fix. Jund would slot in just fine in a meta where more than half the lists had the same basic consistency issues it has. It slotted in just fine as recently as a year ago when half the lists weren't blue. It's in a 70% blue meta that Jund becomes a shotgun in an Uzi and rifle fight.

You never stop claiming nonsense, do you? If you look at MTG Top 8 you'll might notice that the format is more than 50% blue since 2011