Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Go proxy up 4 Black Vises and play them in virtually anything. Replace two cards in your opening hand with them. Tell me if it seems unfair after you dump them. Then think about Dark ritual and 3 of them. Then think about how easy it is to get a 1 mana artifact into play with today's cards. Trinket Mage alone would make it annoying as hell.
Vintage doesn't use it due to Moxes making hands dump much faster if they want to. I used to play 4 of those things back when it wasn't restricted.
It's a beating in any aggro or burn deck. It's just too easy. Not broken, but sure nasty. It's a 1 mana burn spell that hits for three, then rebounds every turn for one less damage from there usually. Think of it that way.
If they unban Black Vice I'm playing Stasis and you can all eat a dick.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Actually, Black Vise can deliver 5 damage at best without even trying, 3 on the first turn and 2 on the second turn.
Price of Progress is good but there are times I had to side the card out becaues the players are not playing nonbasic or they are fetching basiclands.
5 damage if:
you're on the play
your opponent doesn't play a single card, including free spells like MM and FoW in the first two turns
Does more if:
- opponent doesn't do anything first 3 turns, meaning you won anyway unless you play 60 plains.dec
Let's look at his application against the top decks:
Zoo will play cards both on the first and the second turn, meaning the card is a best a lava spike on T1 on the draw, does nothing later on
NoRUG has 7 1-drops and a lot of 2-3 drops. Not playing anything T1 is unlikely, but possible. Not playing anything by T2 is impossible considering the deck play 4xMM and 4xFoW and you will have to cast some spells. Some lists play also a Lavamancer main, but i don't include them. The card is now at best a 4 damage card on T1, 2-3 damage on T2, useless later on.
Dredge laugh at vise and then laugh again and then die from laughters. This is unless you're playing against manaless dredge who rely on the discard step to dredge and nothing else.
Maverick play usually 15 or more 1 drops, and shitload of 2 drops. Again, Vise is at best a lava spike on T1 on the play, useless in all the other occasions.
Stoneblade is actually one of the few decks that doesn't play non cantrip-spells at 1 drop. You still have to consider however, that a single FoW on any spell, not only Vise, make it useless. MM also still exist and is played as a 4-of. I'd say here vise can go as high as 5(on the draw)-6(on the play) damage on T1, 3-4 damage T2 and remain relatively useless later on since it can be countered in one million different ways and he will have used some cards to control the board. Hivemind is about in the same position as Stoneblade.
Merfolk laugh at you maniacally with 4 FoW , 4 MM and 8 1-drops. 3 damage T1 on the play, ~2 on the draw, useless all the rest of the time.
Don't compare that with PoP, PoP is crack. And you could actually try testing Vise, you know, there's a topic about this. You can change your opinion on it like i did with Mana Vault after testing and IBA did with Channel and so and so on.
Speaking of Mana Vault....
Broken or not? I guess I just want MUD to be more consistent but ultimately, I think its just wishful thinking.
Nah, read the card again. If you are on the play and your opponent did not mulligan and only lays land each turn, Black Vise is a Lava Spike each upkeep. Only 5 damage is when they have 1 turn 1 play and 2 turn 2 plays. Yes, Black Vise on the play is extremely powerful. On the draw, however, it is rarely better than a Lava Spike. It is quite amusing that mulligan becomes more profitable.
That said, not many decks want to play Black Vise. Control decks won't, unless it is a 1-of in bad Prison decks ('bad' because they play Black Vise as a finisher, which has no other uses, unlike Jace). Mid-range decks (Reliquary, Vial Aggro) and Aggro-Control decks won't, because Black Vise only deals damage, but not as consistent as creatures. Only decks as hyper-aggressive as Burn, Sligh (Fast Zoo) would value the fast damage from Black Vise. (Fast Zoo would certainly replace some 2/3s and burns for a set of Black Vise.)
I have no problems with unbanning Black Vise, although it is not the safest unban currently. It would speed up the post-Misstep format and possibly challenge some basic MtG mentalities (mulligan decisions, draw-go controls).
Broken, because it is better than Dark Ritual. It is only a colorless Ritual for certain decks (which alone is good though, but not broken), but its battery mode is broken. The meta would consist of various turn 2 decks with heavy protection, including an assortment of game-breaking cards that cost 4, 3C, 5, 4C, 3CC.
I would like to see Mana Vault but since the card was donated for the win I doubt Legacy will ever see Mana Vault.
@ Gheizen64, please note I said "not even trying." Toss in wastelands, ports, sinkholes, Gaddock Teeg, Standstill, Arcane Laboratory, Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist, etc.
Dark ritual into three Black Vise on the play!
Your opponent, who has taken a mulligan, Missteps one. On his turn he takes 3 damage, going to 15. He plays a land, taps it to cast Noble Hierarch.
Nice deck.
I mean the only legitimate reason not to unban Black Vise is that it would make Mike T happy.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I missed the memo where they said Prison was viable in Legacy. Care to share an hypotetical list? I've shared mine, should be fair.
@ Nameless Vault sadly is broken. Is a retarded battery for combo decks. Imagine AnT. I've tested it with Vault and it increased considerably the quantity of T2-3 wins just because you could cast AnT so easily.
Also artifact decks doesn't really need a mana piece like Vault. They need another sol lands that works with artifacts for consistency. A 2 mana Workshop or something of the like. Vault help but not that much because it's a mana source that cost mana.
I dont like making hypotetical lists because they distract the main focus of the argument to deck building choices of the player.
I been playing the game long enough to know that Black Vise can deal 5 damage without even trying by the deck builder and it forces the opponent to make hasty decisions starting from turn 1. It's not a healty card for tournament, casual and the kitchen table.
I dont see why or how DCI can fairly unban Black Vise while keeping Oath of Duids and Necro Banned. Yep Black Vise is that damn good.
I think Skullclamp could come off of the banned list at this point. The format's already full of Mental Missteps, and it doesn't go into any of the top decks. I have no problem with giving a boost to creature-based combo, aggro decks, and "pure" control decks. Would Stoneforge Mystic decks run a Skullclamp?
InfoNinjas
I don't see how the argument "i've been playing so long i know it's true" is relevant here. FYI i've been playing since the first foreign edition, so 1994. I've always played extended or Vintage and now Legacy all those years, so i've played against and with Black Vise my fair share of times. I especially played and loved playing Red decks, in particular my fondest memories are with the RDW2k series circa tempest.
You aren't bringing arguments, just hyperbolae and examples of a past where Keeper was a strong deck and Jameydae tome was a played card, or, in other words, not anything that can be compared to now and thus useless. I, on the other hand, i've presented lists and arguments, and i've playtested the card in the modern legacy format and against modern decks, and i've found it horribly underperforming.
What about Oath and Necro? Oath say : 1G, win next turn. We already saw that in this format, it was called SurvivalVine. With a better blue shell, no vulnerability to grave hate and no need for GGG. No need to have that deck around again.
Necro? Necro on T1 ritual win you the game. How is that anywhere comparable to a conditional burn spell?
Forcing people to make decisions is a good thing for the game. It promote interactions. "Hasty?" I mean this is a format where people can win easily on T1-2 and you're saying a burn 3 to the dome would force people to make "hasty" decisions? I'd argue the opposite myself. You are also conveniently skipping the part that the card actually does "5 damage without even trying" only if you draw it in your starting hand and does nothing if you draw later on. Burn wouldn't play a R : sorcery : deal 5, you can't cast this is this isn't your first turn.
No deck would, in fact.
You also evaluate a card in a vacuum, without considering other cards. If you consider vise like that, than i can consider Lackey the most broken card ever. Because if the opponent doesn't do anything T1-2 and i play it T1, i will probably win the game. Still, card isn't broken.
In what you're right, however, is that the card would be stupid in casual. But i'm not so sure myself. Casual tend (at least it did when i played it) to have decks with lot of creatures and some amount of lifegain so even an undercosted burn spells shouldn't be that good there. But i'm not playing casual myself anymore so i really don't know.
I suggest yourself to avoid discussions if have no intentions of actually substantiate your claims. Brewing a list of with a card you consider "so broken that i would unban Necro first" should be pretty easy. I mean, i have no problems putting 4 necro in every deck and it would make it broken, so i don't see where the hard part here is, example:
NFT (Necro fetchland tendril)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Necro
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Silence
3 Underground Sea
2 Scrubland
1 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
I haven't actually tested it, but my impression is Skullclamp would just kill any form of pure control in Legacy (BUG standstill is a real deck, especially now with Liliana). Resolving it T1 would mean any lost creature is an ancestral, and SFM would be even more played than it is now. Only semi-control decks like NoRUG with a combo win would be able to win off a resolved Skullclamp. Elves! would be a real deck, though. Gonna try some lists with it.
The fact is the card deals 5 damage without trying. If you played in 1994 then you played during Vise Age and you should have no excuse to support Black Vise.
Naah, I do not agree.
Skullclamp would heavily warp the format. And make control a very dead strategy.
And the argument "there is mistep in the format" isn't right, 'cause u knoww, they can play misstep too. So they go clamp, you go misstep, they go misstep misstep. If you are stoneblade or someting, you have just lost the game. Simple as that. I wouldn't like such a card. That says 1 mana you win the game. ( clamp elves/ clamp goblins/ maybe clamp affinity, but there are a lot of good answers for this on, would be very broken, Hell, maybe even clamp merfolk. ( how I would like to clamp my silvergill adept! :D That would make my day ))
Nonono, No skullclamp, Ever.
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Lancer, refusing to come up with an actual argument or a decklist and repeatedly saying, "It was really good in 1995" is not going to persuade anyone that Black Vise would be good in Legacy. You know what cards were really good in 1995? Thawing Glaciers and Serrated Arrows. Fuck, in 1995 Juggernat was banned. Zuran Orb was restricted. Zur's Weirding and Jester's Cap were restricted in 1.5.
You mean like the lists that already run Bitterblossom and Elspeth?
They damn well fucking better.
Skullclamp is a retarded card, even more so when the only combo deck left in the format seems to be NO Rug.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
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