Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Dont need to build a deck. The card can deal 5 damage without attempting to build a deck so why should I wast my time in building one.Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Common sense, first turn Black Vise, pass. Player is hit with 3 damage, that player draws a card plays a land and a creature [7 cards +1 card (draw) -2 cards (play) = 6 cards (hand)] Therefore the opponent is looking at 2 more damage next turn without the Black Vise player doing anything.
This is not saying Dark Ritual and 3 Black Vise, Burn, wasteland, lock whatever.
I do agree the cards has changed much since 1994, today we have more efficient toys that can abuse the quick 5 damage jump.
So can Goblin Grenade.
Only Goblin Grenade can do it off the top.
Assuming that you're on the play, your opponent doesn't mulligan, run Mental Misstep or Force, and Black Vise is in your opening grip maybe you can guarantee doing one more than Fireblast can do at any point in the game, sure, and often 3-5 less than Price of Progress can do.Common sense, first turn Black Vise, pass. Player is hit with 3 damage, that player draws a card plays a land and a creature [7 cards +1 card (draw) -2 cards (play) = 6 cards (hand)] Therefore the opponent is looking at 2 more damage next turn without the Black Vise player doing anything.
No we don't. We have more ways to empty your hand quicker on higher quality spells that make Black Vise irrelevant. Also ways to counter it even on the draw.This is not saying Dark Ritual and 3 Black Vise, Burn, wasteland, lock whatever.
I do agree the cards has changed much since 1994, today we have more efficient toys that can abuse the quick 5 damage jump.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Sorry always hated storm so i will post only subpar lists :(
Not even close... This requires a major setup, you need 1 goblin, 1 Goblin Grenade and 2 mana sources.
We are talking about Black Vise... play 1 land and Black Vise (5 cards to protect if necessary).
It's hard to assume this, not everybody plays Force of Will (unless we are talking Vintage), not every deck needs Mental Misstep (or should be force to required to play Mental Misstep), and there at times Price of Progress nets you 2 or 0 damage (depends mostly upon the metagame).Assuming that you're on the play, your opponent doesn't mulligan, run Mental Misstep or Force, and Black Vise is in your opening grip maybe you can guarantee doing one more than Fireblast can do at any point in the game, sure, and often 3-5 less than Price of Progress can do.
And I dont want to assume those factors to say Black Vise is a healthy card, because if Im assuming Popa Joe is playing mental misstep and he isnt then Papa Joe is an idiot.
Sure but on the avarage (and you can try this at home) you'll have 7 cards, draw 1 card and play 2 cards and holding 6 cards.No we don't. We have more ways to empty your hand quicker on higher quality spells that make Black Vise irrelevant. Also ways to counter it even on the draw.
Yep there is a few decks that can spill out cards much faster like: Dredge (but not every deck is played like Dredge).
There are lots of cards that do busted things "without even trying." This isn't a rational argument to be making against a card. Vise is extremely strong under the right circumstances, but it's trash in many others.
You're right that the format has much more efficient toys than in 1994. Those are the things that make Black Vise comparatively weaker, not stronger. Decks like NO RUG, Blade Control, and Hive Mind couldn't care less about 5 damage in the early game, because they're essentially winning on turn 3.
You don't get to shut your eyes and say "lalalalalalala it's too strong because it's an easy 5 damage." It completely ignores that the card is situational, a horrible lategame topdeck, is completely inflexible, is worse than the alternatives in almost every established deck in the format, and can be easily answered by a card played in almost every deck in the format, even on the draw.
For the record, I've been playing since a week after the release of Alpha. I'm aware of how strong the card is. I'm just not judging the card in a vacuum, because that doesn't have any relevance to the discussion.
Right now Burn is not a "good" deck. It doesn't win tournaments because it's simply too inconsistent. Sure, sometimes it gets the nut draw and just wins the game, but plenty of other times it runs out of gas and falls on its face. There's a possibility that Black Vice could change that, but even if it did, the format could easily adjust.
I don't care about black vise. But i would love to see land tax unbanned. It would give non-blue decks some real good card advantage. It would also put to good use my legend playset ;)
Ok, please name me 1 card. [What I mean by 'without even trying' is that all you need to do is drop it into play and do nothing! No attack, no extra mana and no setup (besides playing 1 land)]
The right circumstance is the starting hand.
Sure the format is loaded with efficient toys but it still plays the same (starting hand is 7 cards and players draw a card per turn and plays 1 land per turn).You're right that the format has much more efficient toys than in 1994. Those are the things that make Black Vise comparatively weaker, not stronger. Decks like NO RUG, Blade Control, and Hive Mind couldn't care less about 5 damage in the early game, because they're essentially winning on turn 3.
I'm saying it can do 5 damage without me doing jack. The weight of the damage falls upon the opponents shoulders, they are forced to dispose their cards quickly or get damage; and this doesnt effect my attacks or other spells.You don't get to shut your eyes and say "lalalalalalala it's too strong because it's an easy 5 damage." It completely ignores that the card is situational, a horrible lategame topdeck, is completely inflexible, is worse than the alternatives in almost every established deck in the format, and can be easily answered by a card played in almost every deck in the format, even on the draw.
OK, my judgment against the card is very simple, it destroys Creativity. Players that want to win will perfer to use the 1 card that deals the most damage over anything else and Black Vise is a solid choice because it can easly deal 5 damage on the first 2 turn; the player uses the free slots to keep the damage rolling. Sure you dont see NO RUG, Blade Control, and Hive Mind playing black vise and I dont see why players would play these deck in a Black Vise Legacy.For the record, I've been playing since a week after the release of Alpha. I'm aware of how strong the card is. I'm just not judging the card in a vacuum, because that doesn't have any relevance to the discussion.
It really annoys me how players think burn sucks and Black Vise is the only answer.Right now Burn is not a "good" deck. It doesn't win tournaments because it's simply too inconsistent. Sure, sometimes it gets the nut draw and just wins the game, but plenty of other times it runs out of gas and falls on its face. There's a possibility that Black Vice could change that, but even if it did, the format could easily adjust.
...Aether Vial? It also is much more brutal against control decks too.
And being on the play. And your opponent not having Mental Misstep or Force of Will. And playing a deck that actually wants conditional damage that's completely useless in the late game and can't be used as removal.
Because Burn requires a ton of creativity, amirite?OK, my judgment against the card is very simple, it destroys Creativity.
This is where we disagree. Players that want to win will continue to play strategies which are far stronger than ones involving Black Vice - strategies like NO RUG, Stoneblade Control, and Hive Mind for example. Strategies which not only beat the hypothetical, as-of-yet completely undefined magical Black Vice deck you keep talking about, but which also don't want Black Vice in them because all of their other cards are stronger.Players that want to win will perfer to use the 1 card that deals the most damage over anything else and Black Vise is a solid choice because it can easly deal 5 damage on the first 2 turn
People think that because it does. I've played Burn extensively in this format. It's great when it gets phenomenal draws, but it frequently just runs out of gas and dies. It's simply not consistent enough to become a tier 1 deck. And even if it did, it does extremely poorly against hate.It really annoys me how players think burn sucks
I don't care if Black Vice is an answer, because I don't see Burn's sucking as a problem. I just think that Vice doesn't belong on the banned list because its relative power level isn't threatening to the stability of Legacy's metagame....and Black Vise is the only answer.
Even for Steppe Lynx that deal 8 damage thru 3 turn on average, or Lackey that give a one-sided show and tell to goblin. The "right circumstance" you are talking about involve actually your opponent not playing magic. More realistical circumstances would be your opponent not play a relevant blocker until T3 (That's when Goyf get a big ass usually).
[And win on T4 on average, and pure control doesn't exist aynmore and we have a 4/5 for 1G. Vise was good in a draw-go enviroment, do you see draw go anymore? Even control decks play creatures and Force and MM are everywhere. Aggro doesn't care about Vise because it will race you faster and you will have 4 dead cards to draw while you should try to stabilize or gain board control (especially important nowadays with every creature played being cheap and huge or having a lot of impact by other means).
Why is this different from goblin guide? Or Lynx? Or Nacatl? Only because Stp is played while artifact destruction isn't? Those cards however do a lot more damage on average. And yes, in the average you should also consider those 60.05% of the games you don't draw Vise in your starting hand.
The weight of the damage falls upon the shoulder of the opponent. Since when "playing magic" is having the weight of damage on your shoulders?
You're right, player will want to win. However, they won't play the card that does more damage, they will play the most consistent card that will win them more games than the other. Black Vise isn't that card.
Black Vise wouldn't destroy creativity any more than Wild Nacatl. If anything, Black Vise could give a nice element of deck design in the sense that while dealing less damage on average than any cheap creature, is less vulnerable to removal and can be reused for other purposes (being an artifact). NO Rug would still own in "Black Vise" Legacy. It just doesn't care. RUG can lay his hand down fast and then cast a turn 3 NO. Wow, you've got black vise, well i've got Progenitus. Even an extremely slow Blade control has 8 already answer to Vise on the draw (that's 65% to have at least one in starting hand, so considering your 40% to draw vise you realistically play Vise without answers only in 14% of hands, or one game in seven)and even if Vise started to see consistent play it has a large pool of free answers like abolish (playing 2 abolish for example would give Blade control a 75% chance to have a free answer in starting hand). Why would exactly hive mind care about Vise if it win T3.5?
Black Vise is the only answer for what? I wouldn't play Vise in burn for the simple reason you can't afford to topdeck it, i'd play it maybe in burn sligh with shrapnel blasts and some form of affinity.
If you have time to write such a wall of text, i suggest you brew a quick deck with the "most broken card in history even more broken than necro" and shut up all us off instead of replying "no u, i'm right". Since the card shouldn't be unbanned before Necro and Oath (your words) such a feat should be effortless, ruckus came up with a broken Necro lists in less than 14 minutes.
Acceptable card in a sense... Though the worrisome part of Black Vise it deals damage to the oppoent without wasting attacks :)
See this is where the card becomes bad because the opponent is required to play Mental Misstep or Force of Will. This is one of the downsides of Vintage (forced creativity).
I feel the same about High Tide and Tendrils of Agony.Because Burn requires a ton of creativity, amirite?
wow... Gee do I need to build a necro deck to prove why the card is bad? Do I need to build an Oath Deck? I've already pointed out on the avarage a black vise can deal 5 damage, typically it deals 7 if you really, really want to get into the mechanics of the card and the game. Sure players can dispose cards quickly but that's an option not a requirement, when disposing cards quickly becomes a requirement then there is something seriously wrong with the format.This is where we disagree. Players that want to win will continue to play strategies which are far stronger than ones involving Black Vice - strategies like NO RUG, Stoneblade Control, and Hive Mind for example. Strategies which not only beat the hypothetical, as-of-yet completely undefined magical Black Vice deck you keep talking about, but which also don't want Black Vice in them because all of their other cards are stronger.
Also I do agree with the strategy factor of the game and strategy tells me a 1 colorless artifact that can deal 5 damage without a hint of effort is worth playing.
[I'll save this for a burn thread]People think that because it does. I've played Burn extensively in this format. It's great when it gets phenomenal draws, but it frequently just runs out of gas and dies. It's simply not consistent enough to become a tier 1 deck. And even if it did, it does extremely poorly against hate.
I guess that's the fun part of this thread we all have opinions.I don't care if Black Vice is an answer, because I don't see Burn's sucking as a problem. I just think that Vice doesn't belong on the banned list because its relative power level isn't threatening to the stability of Legacy's metagame.
@Gheizen64. I said (or ment to say) Black Vise is equal in the powerlevel as Necro and Oath. [I've already said I'll use Black Vise in my Stasis deck, because the card is much better then Sleeper.]
How is it a problem when the majority of decks in the format are already doing it?
It's worth noting that I would be less confident about the removal of Vice from the banned list if Misstep were banned. But as long as it's legal, it will be prevalent and will be keeping things like Vice fully in check. You only have to look at the extreme decline in Vials being played since Misstep's printing to see this is true.
No, because everyone agrees that Necro is a problem. No one here seems to agree with you that Vise is a problem. Hence the burden of proof is on you.wow... Gee do I need to build a necro deck to prove why the card is bad?
So does Steppe Lynx or Wild Nacatl.I've already pointed out on the avarage a black vise can deal 5 damage, typically it deals 7
How is it a problem when every single viable deck in the format already does it?Sure players can dispose cards quickly but that's an option not a requirement, when disposing cards quickly becomes a requirement then there is something seriously wrong with the format.
Attacks are not a limited resource. You can't "waste" them. You would almost be making sense because your opponent can interact with creatures except they can also interact with Black Vise by countering it or mulliganing or hey playing spells.
Or do something active. Or have life gain. Or mulligan. Or play Tireless Tribe. I mean the number of situations in which Black Vise does nothing is almost endless.See this is where the card becomes bad because the opponent is required to play Mental Misstep or Force of Will. This is one of the downsides of Vintage (forced creativity).
Which also suck of late, soI feel the same about High Tide and Tendrils of Agony.
It would help, I've never been convinced of it myself. But yes, brainstorming lists and looking for actual brokenness is part of how we discuss what should or shouldn't stay/be banned.wow... Gee do I need to build a necro deck to prove why the card is bad?
Well in this case we can just look at Vintage and fidget with it a bit.Do I need to build an Oath Deck?
Against a gold fish on the play, maybe, but why does anyone care about that argument?I've already pointed out on the avarage a black vise can deal 5 damage, typically it deals 7 if you really, really want to get into the mechanics of the card and the game.
Unless it's not a requirement because Black Vise is largely irrelevant to a metagame in which it is irrelevant.Sure players can dispose cards quickly but that's an option not a requirement, when disposing cards quickly becomes a requirement then there is something seriously wrong with the format.
Also I do agree with the strategy factor of the game and strategy tells me a 1 colorless artifact that can deal 5 damage without a hint of effort is worth playing.
A fun part of opinions is some being better than others.I guess that's the fun part of this thread we all have opinions.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Because it's not a requirement.
DCI didnt say we are giving your guys timespiral because I know you can Force of Will it.
Except playing cards is a much less restrictive requirement than playing sacrifice effects for NO and SnT effects, and those cards are absolutely fine even if they make a lot of casual deck unplayable. So i can't follow your logic.
It's not a requirement to block creatures when they attack you either, but it's a good idea if you want to win the game.
If they ban a card every time it requires you to do something to avoid being killed by it, Magic would be a pretty shitty game.
If a card requires you to do something ridiculous to avoid being killed by it, such as running 8+ sideboard cards for it, or having a turn 1 answer to it every game, or playing a specific color, then obviously that card is a problem and should be banned. (See: Flash.)
A card which requires you to aggressively play your cards, which every Legacy deck already does anyway? Not so much.
Forget whether Black Vise would be broken. Would Black Vise even see play in competitive Legacy? The only way I can see it possibly not sucking is in a Prison type deck, and even then, the archetype would still be pretty crappy.
It would see play. What you are missing is that players can have far more than 7 cards in their hand at the beginning of their turn, which is why it got restricted, and not that stupid argument about it being able to deal 5 damage for 1 mana.
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
Sorry, maybe I'm talking over your heads, it's a typical fault of mine since I'm assuming that you can see what I'm talking about. I will try to explain what I mean. As a requirement I mean by it's assumed that such and such card in existance can and will fix a broken card.
Because mental misstep is legal it's assumed that the card can and will fix such cards as Black Vise, because the player can play the card in response therefore fixing the problem. The problem I have with this ideology that the powerlevel of the card has never changed but now deckbuilding is being forced upon the player to use such and such.
Currently, mental misstep isnt a deck building requirement, players are using the spell because they want to make a good deck. Why would players not use Mental Misstep? the same reason why players play Burn, Zoo or ANT, it about personal preference.
Forcing mental misstep as a requirement removes personal preference from the game.
I see Legacy as the only true eternal format next to EDH, the major problem with vintage is that players are requried to automaticly add such and such cards for them to compete at the same level as other players, this limits deck building options and soon players will find the format boring.
I lol'ed.
I must not have been clear. I don't think Black Vise would be a problem even if Misstep weren't legal in the format. The fact that it is just makes it that much more certain it wouldn't be a problem.Because mental misstep is legal it's assumed that the card can and will fix such cards as Black Vise, because the player can play the card in response therefore fixing the problem.
This is a contradictory statement. If Mental Misstep makes a good deck, it is essentially a deck building requirement. That's why it sees play almost everywhere, even in non-blue decks like Zoo. Players who play Burn and ANT in this environment are either masochists or don't actually care about winning tournaments.Currently, mental misstep isnt a deck building requirement, players are using the spell because they want to make a good deck.
I don't disagree with this sentiment, but Mental Misstep's very existence makes Mental Misstep a requirement; Black Vise has nothing to do with it.Forcing mental misstep as a requirement removes personal preference from the game.
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