All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

I wonder why TC wasn't banned in Pauper as well during the last announcements axedrop in near all formats. Wasn't Delver + Swiftspear + Probe + TC + lighning bolt a bit toooo obvious? ... sorry guys ... missed that the B&R management is handled by the same Hive Mind of a company which printed the shit in the first place because their development and testing obviously sucks

[iamajellydonut]

It is starting to really really ANGER me that Black Vise and Mind Twist are still banned, unbelievable joke.

"I'm so fucking mad that two awful cards that I likely would never have an excuse to play with or against are banned." -Quizzlemanizzle

While I would appreciate more things being unbanned on general principle, I can see the reasoning behind not doing so. Would unbanning Mind Twist really do anything to help the format? Would it inspire new archetypes or revive old ones? Probably not. It would either do nothing, or someone would be an asshole and shove it into an existing brew on the basis of "interesting variant". There's no reason for them to unban it, and there are issues of safety if they do, so why go there?

[Zombie]

Black Vise and Mind Twist are both cards where they either would do nothing, or would increase the amount of bad games that get "played". There simply isn't a positive, "format became more fun" kind of case to be made for either card.

[iamajellydonut]

I'm more frustrated about the lack of unbannings on Ancestral Vision, Bloodbraid Elf, and Sword of the Meek in Modern.

#stillexpectinggreatthingsoutofmodern

Modern has been around for four years and has at no point in time has it been anything less than complete shit. I'm sorry you still have hopes for it.

[testing32]

It is starting to really really ANGER me that Black Vise and Mind Twist are still banned, unbelievable joke.

Why? You aren't going to play with them anyways. It's like complaining if "White Knight" was banned. Wouldn't matter at all.

[Zombie]

Why? You aren't going to play with them anyways. It's like complaining if "White Knight" was banned. Wouldn't matter at all.

This made me miss Demigod Red and Blood Knight ;_;

[haxorz]

I wonder why TC wasn't banned in Pauper as well during the last announcements axedrop in near all formats. Wasn't Delver + Swiftspear + Probe + TC + lighning bolt a bit toooo obvious? ... sorry guys ... missed that the B&R management is handled by the same Hive Mind of a company which printed the shit in the first place because their development and testing obviously sucks

Swiftspear is an uncommon.

Most Pauper players suck at deckbuilding and just netdeck (well, this is true of players of all formats...) and a lot of the commonly played decks were poorly designed and didn't take proper advantage of Treasure Cruise.

[Bobmans]

Most Pauper players suck at deckbuilding and just netdeck (well, this is true of players of all formats...)

Netdecking, the biggest crime in MtG.
Is it even possible to design a deck that is actually competative and does not exist already? Making like anything you throw together netdecking?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Modern has been around for four years and has at no point in time has it been anything less than complete shit.

True statement, but that doesn't mean it won't someday be worth playing.

When my kids (who have yet to be conceived) express an interest in competitive Magic, I suspect I will be encouraging them to play Modern and not Legacy...

[haxorz]

Netdecking, the biggest crime in MtG.
Is it even possible to design a deck that is actually competative and does not exist already? Making like anything you throw together netdecking?

Sorry, my comment was misleading. I should have said "... Most Pauper players suck at deckbuilding and just netdeck bad decks and/or design bad decks (well, this is true of players of all formats...)". There's nothing wrong with netdecking. For a Legacy example, 4 Ponder Miracles is a beautiful deck that I am proud to netdeck. But there are some players that just copy Philip's 75 without understanding the motivation behind it.

For a Pauper example, one of the most played decks is this awful UR "delver" deck: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype...r-16313#online. Yes, Mulldrifter, Quicksand, Delver, Sea Gate Oracle, Flame Slash... all in the same deck. Ewww.

[MaximumC]

Why? You aren't going to play with them anyways. It's like complaining if "White Knight" was banned. Wouldn't matter at all.

Let's be fair here. The principal of the banned list really should be that a card is legal unless there is a specific, evidenced reason why allowing it to be played does bad things to Magic tournaments. If they banned "White Knight" then yes, of course there should be an outroar over the violation of this principal even though no one would play it anyway. If you really believe that Black Vise and Mindtwist would see no play (and I'm not sure I agree with that) then they would not interfere with the format and should come off.

I expect you will see them come off eventually, actually. Look at the last year or two in Vintage and Legacy. But, Wizards is understandably careful about messing around with the B&R List. Give it time.

[Dice_Box]

The ban list is at its best when it is small, out of the way and doing only the task that is required of it and no more. Holding things that are on that list for no good reason other than they where demonicly broken in times long since past is criminal now. I know why Vice is on that list, that snapshot in time is also long since past us. I know why making someone discard their whole hand is bad too, but Mana Drain is not a thing anymore and even if it was, does anyone really think thatt the two would see much play together in Legacy these days?

You can argue that Recruiter is banned on logistical reasons and I can begrudging accept that, but you have a much hardr time making me argree that some of the other cards on that list are there for any good reason save for softening the blows that will come with future bannings. Padding to stop coplaining online when action is needed. Something I feel is wrong.

[HrishiQQ]

This prisoner exchange thing they have going on is unbelievably stupid.

[Bobmans]

This prisoner exchange thing they have going on is unbelievably stupid.

Where is that actually coming from that they have this police?

[MaximumC]

Mana Drain is not a thing anymore and even if it was, does anyone really think thatt the two would see much play together in Legacy these days?

Would Drain see play? Boy howdy, would it. There is no tempo swing like a Drain swing. You have no idea.

There's something else going on, too. Drain costs $100.00 at the moment, and if it sees any Vintage play it's only a 2 or 3 of nowadays because there are so many other competing counterspells. Release it into Legacy as a 4-of, where it would be a better counterspell, and you will see that price EXPLODE to $500 or more very, very quickly. Who's interests get served by this?

Go take a listen to So Many Insane Plays, the episode where they go over a bunch of potential cards for unrestriction and talk about this price issue with Library of Alexandria. As a one-of, it's got a hefty price. If you let people run 4, the price suddenly vomits upwards. Who benefits from such a policy?

"But but we shouldn't ban cards based on cost." I agree. But, it's myopic to petition in favor of moving things off the list without attention to the broader consequences. Luckily, there are plenty of safe cards to take off the list (like Mind Twist) that are very easily obtained and will not explode in price of released.

[death]

Where is that actually coming from that they have this policy?

Such policy doesn't exist. Remember when Mental Misstep was banned? and when Land Tax was unbanned? Don't get too hung up on Black Vise and Mind Twist when Dragons of Tarkir has better cards to offer.

[Dice_Box]

Where is that actually coming from that they have this police?

When was the last time they unbanned anything without also banning something in the same breath? How often does that happen?

Also on Drain. I am not suggesting unbanning it, I was musing on how much play it would see and I am not really sure how much it would. As for its price, it's not on the list, that issue can be solved. If Drain is the only thing from my post that you want to force on though, I feel you have undersold the points I was wishing to make.

Please, if your going to go out if your way to prove me wrong, target the point overall because I feel it is a very important one. The reserve list should be short, effective and out of my way. Nothing more.

[MaximumC]

When was the last time they unbanned anything without also banning something in the same breath? How often does that happen?

Also on Drain. I am not suggesting unbanning it, I was musing on how much play it would see and I am not really sure how much it would. As for its price, it's not on the list, that issue can be solved. If Drain is the only thing from my post that you want to force on though, I feel you have undersold the points I was wishing to make.

Please, if your going to go out if your way to prove me wrong, target the point overall because I feel it is a very important one. The reserve list should be short, effective and out of my way. Nothing more.

The list should be as small as humanly possible. If it were up to me, Mind Twist, Hermit Druid, Black Vise, Earthcraft, Frantic Search, Flash, Balance, Mystical Tutor, Memory Jar, Oath of Druids, and Flash would all come up, probably in that order. (You could take off the Draw 7s too if Legacy wanted a restricted list, but if not, then you need to keep them all banned because holy crap 4x Twister 4x Wheel .dec). But that's just because I would prefer playing Vintage-lite, it might not be the best idea for everyone. Whoever is actually managing the banned list has to cater to everyone, not just players like me, so they have to consider whether any given change is good or bad for the format.

Your "point" was that you think there's a hostage situation going on where they exchange bannings for unbannings, and I don't think they do that.

[Ace/Homebrew]

The reserve list should be short, effective and out of my way. Nothing more.

This used to be my feeling as well, then WotC increased the size of the list by 22% and now I just don't care about it anymore.

They could have added "Remove this card unless you are drafting" from those Conspiracy cards... Now they just clutter up the banned list.

[Amon Amarth]

The ban list is at its best when it is small, out of the way and doing only the task that is required of it and no more. Holding things that are on that list for no good reason other than they where demonicly broken in times long since past is criminal now. I know why Vice is on that list, that snapshot in time is also long since past us. I know why making someone discard their whole hand is bad too, but Mana Drain is not a thing anymore and even if it was, does anyone really think thatt the two would see much play together in Legacy these days?

You can argue that Recruiter is banned on logistical reasons and I can begrudging accept that, but you have a much hardr time making me argree that some of the other cards on that list are there for any good reason save for softening the blows that will come with future bannings. Padding to stop coplaining online when action is needed. Something I feel is wrong.

I agree. Keep it short and only put relevant cards on it. At least in Recruiter's case, you can make a good argument for it being broken whereas you can for Vise/Twist.