All B/R update speculation.

[Lancer]

Black Vise helps Stasis out a bit with one of its big problems, the clock, but doesn't solve some of its other problems like general inconsistency and people playing fast decks. I mean that's definitely the deck you want to play it in if anything, but it's not going to push the deck to dominance. If it makes it part of the meta, so what? The only reason Stasis is so annoying right now is because it takes them fifty minutes to win a game.

Here's the list I would play btw


16 Island
2 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Forsaken City

4 Howling Mine
3 Jace Beleren
2 Temple Bell

4 Stasis
4 Propaganda
2 Frozen Aether

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
3 Arcane Denial

3 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth

4 Black Vise

- 2 Echoing Truth +2 Vedalken Mastermind (I'm not sure about bells, Mikokoro and Jace ~ but those are your card choices)


I do agree the 50 min game is a problem.

[wow I feel like posting my stasis deck but I would like to do it at the right developing tread]

[Zilla]

@Gheizen64... sweet Jesus what a shitty deck list... No Force of Will? No Brainstorm? No Tezzeret? No Tabernacle? Stasis? (we been saying Stasis) Please put your heart into it and think like a spike.

Are you fucking kidding me? You have the nerve to call people out for trying to prove your point for you when you don't even have the balls to make your own decklist and try to prove it yourself? What planet do you live on?

[Lancer]

Are you fucking kidding me? You have the nerve to call people out for trying to prove your point for you when you don't even have the balls to make your own decklist and try to prove it yourself? What planet do you live on?

Because posting the deck list only focus the attention towards the deck builder not the card in question. Get it?

@Admiral_Arzar

Yawgmoth's Will ~ I remember back when the card was legal in standard and I built a land destruction deck with dark rituals and rain of tears (I believe) and my first turn was a land/dark ritual/land destruction [hits opponent land] my next turn was land/dark rutual/ Yawgmoth's Will. I remember my opponent saying under his breath, "I'll be happy when the card is finally rotated out of standard" And from that day on (everytime I think/play Yawgmoth's Will) I remember those haunting words.

I do agree, Yawgmoth's Will is too broken for the format... :)

[Gui]

Are you fucking kidding me? You have the nerve to call people out for trying to prove your point for you when you don't even have the balls to make your own decklist and try to prove it yourself? What planet do you live on?

O hai there Zilla, welcome to what TS has lately become.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

- 2 Echoing Truth +2 Vedalken Mastermind (I'm not sure about bells, Mikokoro and Jace ~ but those are your card choices)


I do agree the 50 min game is a problem.

[wow I feel like posting my stasis deck but I would like to do it at the right developing tread]

I was testing out Bells for one game but then the obvious problem came up.

Running creatures seems an obvious mistake, there's no reason to open the deck up to flack hate.

[Julian23]

Because posting the deck list only focus the attention towards the deck builder not the card in question. Get it?

That makes no sense at all. Posting a deck list is one of the most important ways to show how people could utilize a certain card. Nobody cares about who posted the decklist. I mean, you're basically saying that the card is awesome, yet shit on the first deck it shows up in.

Just post a decklist that doesn't suck in your opinion.

[Lancer]

I was testing out Bells for one game but then the obvious problem came up.

I never seen a stasis deck list with bells before, I dont think it was a bad pick but a hard card to untap.

Running creatures seems an obvious mistake, there's no reason to open the deck up to flack hate.

Agree, typically I would play cards that bounce Islands back to my hand, but your deck list didnt seem to have any such cards. [But this topic should go to Stasis]

No Julian23... Gheizen64 really believes Black Vise isnt broken therefore he's not going to try to build a deck to prove how broken the card is and post a deck and try to pass it off as the most likely broken deck to come from Black Vise... Holly Shit, I'm not born yesterday. I could easy say Necro isnt broken and build the most shittist deck to prove it.

Also the proof that black vise is too broken for legacy (which I said a dozen of times) it can deal 5 damage for 1 mana without any thought on the build.

[Zilla]

Because posting the deck list only focus the attention towards the deck builder not the card in question. Get it?

All I get is that you're either unwilling or unable to support your argument with anything substantive, and prefer to fall back on rhetoric.

Posting a decklist isn't going to hurt your credibility any further. That camel's back is already broken.

[mordraid]

Do you honestly think, even if they unban Tax, that Parfait will even be competitive? While you're fetching 3 lands a turn and taking your time to set up Tax + Rack, they're going to be casting NO for Prog, SNT for Hive, etc...

Land Tax doesn't even matter at this point, because even if they let it off the list it will do nothing more than spike in price from speculators trying to cash in on their 30 playsets. The card won't make a dent in Legacy.

I do think that parfait could be competitive. The parfait deck receive the same kind of treatment back in the days when it was created for T1.

I do think that a list like this one could do well.

1 zuran orb
4 land tax
3 scroll rack
3 enlightened tutor
4 path to exile
1 ghostly prison
1 story circle
2 argivian find
2 wrath of god
1 aura of silence
1 planar birth
3 orim's chant
1 isochron scepter
2 elspeth, knight errant
2 oblivion ring
1 pithing needle
1 sacred mesa
1 moat
1 ivory tower
3 lotus petal
1 humility
2 mox diamond
1 serra's sanctum
14 plains
4 wasteland

Maybe it's too close to what was parfait back in the days, maybe it needs some adaptation to the current meta.

[Lancer]

All I get is that you're either unwilling or unable to support your argument with anything substantive, and prefer to fall back on rhetoric.

Posting a decklist isn't going to hurt your credibility any further. That camel's back is already broken.

I'm getting really tired of this (the back and forth is annoying) so I'll post a few examples.

Green/Blue Stasis with 1 Black Vise

(note that I'm playing only 1 Black Vise in the stasis build)

Land [22]
3x Forsaken City
12x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Tropical Island
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Instants [25]
(draw/tutor) ~ 6
4x Brainstorm
2x Crop Rotation
(counter spell) ~ 13
3x Muddle the Mixture
3x Daze
3x Thwart
4x Force of Will
(other) ~ 8
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Ensnare

Enchantment [6]
3x Root Maze
3x Stasis

Artifact [1]
1x Black Vise

Planeswalker [2]
2x Garruk Wildspeaker



Thoughtless Zoo

(Note that I'm using 4 black vise in this build)

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plateau
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills


Creatures [20]
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl

Instants [7]
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile

Sorceries [3]
3 Chain Lightning

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library

Artifacts [6]
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Black Vise

[menace13]

I don't see anything getting unbanned yet. Misstep looks like the most obvious card to go.

[Dark Ritual]

Dealing 5 damage for 1 mana is broken? Funny, I've seen wild nacatl deal 6 damage for one. Does that make it banworthy? Absolutely not. I've seen kird ape/loam lion do 6 damage for one measly mana. The fact is, black vise is hardly broken. Stasis is not a broken card. There's a reason you never see stasis put up consistent tournament results or results for that matter. Why? Because stasis decks don't work as well as stoneblade, NO RUG, zoo, or any other tier one decks for that matter.

[Rizso]

I don't see anything getting unbanned yet. Misstep looks like the most obvious card to go.

Not really, misstep is fine but a card that is misstake to print but not a banworthy one. Only 2 cards that are even close tbh is NO and Show.

[menace13]

Not really, misstep is fine but a card that is misstake to print but not a banworthy one. Only 2 cards that are even close tbh is NO and Show.

I would ask you why you think Show and Tell is, when the numbers and the top placings decks have nothing to do with the card. Natural Order only gets rid of NO RUG while still leaving the top 8 tables full of Misstep. I do not want Misstep banned even though a large part of the community does not like it and it is the most obvious on the list according to Tom L.

I can't see anything unbanned that 1) would NOT go into a blue(Misstep) deck and 2) isn't named Black Vise or Earthcraft. Unbanning Black Vise would add Burn as a deck-possibly make Zoo better although any other card in the deck is a better top deck past turn 1-. Earthcraft would power up Elves and Enchantress, but that won't do enough to revert legacy back to Pre-Misstep era of 40 decks being viable contenders.

[Lancer]

Dealing 5 damage for 1 mana is broken? Funny, I've seen wild nacatl deal 6 damage for one. Does that make it banworthy? Absolutely not. I've seen kird ape/loam lion do 6 damage for one measly mana.

If wizards made Nacatl with dual lands in mind the cats casting cost would be [G2]. Without duals (ie: the setup) the cat would suck (so you need duals). Black Vise only requires a drop.

The fact is, black vise is hardly broken. Stasis is not a broken card. There's a reason you never see stasis put up consistent tournament results or results for that matter. Why? Because stasis decks don't work as well as stoneblade, NO RUG, zoo, or any other tier one decks for that matter.

Currently, stasis dont have a good/fast win condition most of the offensive cards are fragile or too situational, deck milling is too slow for the tournament and stasis tog is often used for all the wrong reasons. Typically, when I suggest help for stasis I try to move them away from the tog, because the opponent can drag a turn to prolong the game. Some stasis players are using Ebony Owl Netsuke (Black Vise lite) for the kill but I find the 7 card hold a very hard card to lock.

Stasis and Black Vise is not a new idea.


http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...om/daily/bd256

[Gheizen64]

I never seen a stasis deck list with bells before, I dont think it was a bad pick but a hard card to untap.



Agree, typically I would play cards that bounce Islands back to my hand, but your deck list didnt seem to have any such cards. [But this topic should go to Stasis]

No Julian23... Gheizen64 really believes Black Vise isnt broken therefore he's not going to try to build a deck to prove how broken the card is and post a deck and try to pass it off as the most likely broken deck to come from Black Vise... Holly Shit, I'm not born yesterday. I could easy say Necro isnt broken and build the most shittist deck to prove it.

Also the proof that black vise is too broken for legacy (which I said a dozen of times) it can deal 5 damage for 1 mana without any thought on the build.

Yeah, i really do. Sorry.

I posted this list on the B&R Deckbuilding challenge:

4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Boomerang
4 Arcane Denial
4 Black Vise
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Howling Mine
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Jace Beleren

4 Forsaken City
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Island
4 Tundra

I'm planning to test all the list posted here, but at a first glance they don't seems to solve the critical problems my list have, and it's still <30% against anything. The topic is in this page (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...B-R-List/page8) if you are interested in having a constructive discussion.

Btw i thought it was already determined Vise sucks in Zoo, why you are bringing up a point you declared dead again? Zoo wouldn't play Vise since it's an absolutely dead card after T1 with no way to stall cards in your opponent hand.

[Rizso]

I would ask you why you think Show and Tell is, when the numbers and the top placings decks have nothing to do with the card. Natural Order only gets rid of NO RUG while still leaving the top 8 tables full of Misstep. I do not want Misstep banned even though a large part of the community does not like it and it is the most obvious on the list according to Tom L.

I can't see anything unbanned that 1) would NOT go into a blue(Misstep) deck and 2) isn't named Black Vise or Earthcraft. Unbanning Black Vise would add Burn as a deck-possibly make Zoo better although any other card in the deck is a better top deck past turn 1-. Earthcraft would power up Elves and Enchantress, but that won't do enough to revert legacy back to Pre-Misstep era of 40 decks being viable contenders.

I dont think anything will be banned. But NO and Show are the 2 most unfair spells there is atm, they are both super mana generators for spells that are why to cheap to get for 3 and 4 mana.

Misstep has made legacy way more interactive then it was before but also forced players to play more interactive magic. Guess the ones that like it to be banned are the people that dont want to interact with their opponents. If you remove Misstep what will happend is massive amount of combo decks will be played then after that a major surge of counter balance decks will come and the format will be 1-2 turn faster. And we will have a format with just 0-2 CC cost spells again.

I rather have this format then the old one.

[Rune]

I dont think anything will be banned. But NO and Show are the 2 most unfair spells there is atm, they are both super mana generators for spells that are why to cheap to get for 3 and 4 mana.

Misstep has made legacy way more interactive then it was before but also forced players to play more interactive magic. Guess the ones that like it to be banned are the people that dont want to interact with their opponents. If you remove Misstep what will happend is massive amount of combo decks will be played then after that a major surge of counter balance decks will come and the format will be 1-2 turn faster. And we will have a format with just 0-2 CC cost spells again.

I rather have this format then the old one.

You are right that Misstep has made Legacy more interactive, but this is not necessarily a good thing. There NEED to be cards in the format that blue decks have a very hard time interacting with. Previously we had very good 1cc anti-blue cards in Vial, Putrid Imp, Exploration and so on. As a blue player, you had to come up with ways to reliably answer cards like these.

With Misstep in the mix, there's not much left to punish you for choosing to play blue. On the other hand, if you don't play blue cards, it's now more likely than ever that you'll be punished for your choice.

The other option is to ban Brainstorm. However, I'm convinced the repercussions of such a decision would be too severe. Here I agree with the #1 ranked Legacy player in my country when he says, "If Brainstorm gets banned, Legacy will die".

As a side-effect of banning Misstep, NO and SnT will become less powerful, because Spell Pierce will make a comeback and fast combo will return to punish slow 'combos' like NO/SnT. Instead of being beaten to death by HERPDERP decks that feature either the five-colored dildo or the spaghetti monster, you'll now get Grapeshot'd for 20 by a cute little boy named AJ. Seems like a good change!

WotC is perfectly aware that Misstep is the most played counterspell in the format, and that the majority of the players don't want this abomination of a card to stay. WotC is aware that the format has never been more blue-centric. Failure to take action can be directly translated into, "LOL, we don't give a shit about your stupid format. Now, go play Modern and buy more packs, assholes."

The format isn't unplayable or anything, but most of us liked Legacy better when Misstep wasn't a card. As a consumer of WotC's products, I see no reason not to complain about their most obnoxious design error in recent history.

[Rune]

I dont think anything will be banned. But NO and Show are the 2 most unfair spells there is atm, they are both super mana generators for spells that are why to cheap to get for 3 and 4 mana.

Misstep has made legacy way more interactive then it was before but also forced players to play more interactive magic. Guess the ones that like it to be banned are the people that dont want to interact with their opponents. If you remove Misstep what will happend is massive amount of combo decks will be played then after that a major surge of counter balance decks will come and the format will be 1-2 turn faster. And we will have a format with just 0-2 CC cost spells again.

I rather have this format then the old one.

You are right that Misstep has made Legacy more interactive, but this is not necessarily a good thing. There NEED to be cards in the format that blue decks have a very hard time interacting with. Previously we had very good 1cc anti-blue cards in Vial, Putrid Imp, Exploration and so on. As a blue player, you had to come up with ways to reliably answer cards like these.

With Misstep in the mix, there's not much left to punish you for choosing to play blue. On the other hand, if you don't play blue cards, it's now more likely than ever that you'll be punished for your choice.

The other option is to ban Brainstorm. However, I'm convinced the repercussions of such a decision would be too severe. Here I agree with the #1 ranked Legacy player in my country when he says, "If Brainstorm gets banned, Legacy will die".

As a side-effect of banning Misstep, NO and SnT will become less powerful, because Spell Pierce will make a comeback and fast combo will return to punish slow 'combos' like NO/SnT. Instead of being beaten to death by HERPDERP decks that feature either the five-colored dildo or the spaghetti monster, you'll now get Grapeshot'd for 20 by a cute little boy named AJ. Seems like a good change!

WotC is perfectly aware that Misstep is the most played counterspell in the format, and that the majority of the players don't want this abomination of a card to stay. WotC is aware that the format has never been more blue-centric. Failure to take action can be directly translated into, "LOL, we don't give a shit about your stupid format. Now, go play Modern and buy more packs, assholes."

The format isn't unplayable or anything, but most of us liked Legacy better when Misstep wasn't a card. As a consumer of WotC's products, I see no reason not to complain about their most obnoxious design error in recent history.

[GGoober]

If wizards made Nacatl with dual lands in mind the cats casting cost would be [G2]. Without duals (ie: the setup) the cat would suck (so you need duals). Black Vise only requires a drop.

Are you fucking trolling us? If you think and believe this way, please stop playing this format. Talking about fetchlands/duals as if they were difficult pre-requisites/conditions is what a non-eternal player would be making a big fuss about.

If you think Black Vise is too overpowered, good for you. I'll just watch Zoo players laugh when they race you with a Wild Nacatl even if they decide to not dump their hands. How is Vise.deck even going to hold a candle against NORUG/Merfolks? They dump their hand pretty fast, except they get the last laugh because they actually have a reliable source of damage output compared to Vise.

+1 to Kikoo. That sums up what I feel about the situation of Legacy right now. Nothing's broken/overpowered, but there's the clear culprit that is pushing the winning decks to still continue to dominate. MM has really stifled previously viable decks, and if it was banned, it's not like combo is going to explode for reasons Kikoo pointed out: Spell Pierce is actually incredible at answering combo. Unlike MM, Pierce is more narrow, but that's the whole point, that the format isn't going to be a format dominated by Spell Pierce because swapping MM to Pierce post-MM ban would provide outs against combo, yet allow more decks to thrive. I don't really care if MM is banned/unbanned because it's not creating stale metagames, at least for now, but I think I prefer the meta pre-MM.