All B/R update speculation.

[btm10]

I'm a bit biased (obviously) but I really do like where my maindeck is right now in terms of variance reduction. The percentage of the deck dedicated to producing colored mana is identical to that of the traditional UB list, but I feel like the addition of Mox Diamond and the third color as a result of that helps the deck's consistency more than it hurts it.

It looks good. I'm going to have to give your list a spin soon.

Played three miracles decks in three rounds tonight. I went 2-0-1, but with adequate practice and refining I think that deck is on its way to the banhammer. Just hope they don't take Top or DTT.

I don't think it will. People are going to start playing the powerful midrange and control decks that beat up on Miracles (we're already seeing some of it now), and the meta will shift again. Top is obnoxious, but Miracles can be overcome just like any other deck.

[Dark Ritual]

Only card they could possibly ban out of miracles is brainstorm and that isn't happening. Not to mention miracles gets beaten up by some strategies like shardless BUG for example. Miracles is not getting anything banned in legacy this sounds like 7 years ago when countertop reigned supreme except now there are so many decks that can beatup on the countertop engine miracles is based on due to abrupt decay and other decks being created like nic fit.

[maharis]

Only card they could possibly ban out of miracles is brainstorm and that isn't happening. Not to mention miracles gets beaten up by some strategies like shardless BUG for example. Miracles is not getting anything banned in legacy this sounds like 7 years ago when countertop reigned supreme except now there are so many decks that can beatup on the countertop engine miracles is based on due to abrupt decay and other decks being created like nic fit.

Nic Fit actually has a tough time against Miracles because of Terminus and giving them basic lands. The BUG planeswalker versions are better, but can have trouble against other control/midrange.

Is Shardless really that good against miracles? Esper Thopters is apparently really good against it, I wasn't expecting that. We both die horribly to 12post though.

[btm10]

Is Shardless really that good against miracles? Esper Thopters is apparently really good against it, I wasn't expecting that. We both die horribly to 12post though.

Shardless doesn't have 12post's Miracles matchup, but it's favorable overall for Shardless (my testing puts it in the 55/45 to 60/40 range) though it's definitely possible to tune either deck one way or another and swing the matchup significantly.

In general, Miracles struggles game 1 against other dedicated control decks and against a lot of midrange decks that can compete on power, especially if the midrange deck can answer Jace and Entreat. The BUG Control lists that were popular last year around this time have particularly strong Miracles matchups because they can't get Counter/Top locked, have lots of ways to generate card advantage, and pack great threats against Miracles (TNN, Clique, Tar Pit).

[Hrothgar]

Post Ramp, MUD, Tezzerator, Shardless, Dredge, Team America, Jund, Merfolks, Goblin are bad matchups for Miracle (from 90/10 to 60/40).
Death and Taxes, RUG, Blade, Elves, Omnitell, Show and Tell are balanced matchups (from 55/45 to 45/55).

[Philipp2293]

How do you arrive at the conclusion that Dredge is a bad MU for Miracles? In my experience it's sometimes possible to beat Dredge G1 without hate.

[dunk]

Yeah this list is far from accurate according to my own experience. Post Ramp is pretty much unbeatable unless the stars allign or you run a heavy set against that deck, but anything else is closer in the 50:50 region, even though personally I occasionally have trouble against SnT, RUG and Tezz. Also I don't think that Elves is close... unless they board like 15 hatecards. Decks like Shardless, Jund or Goblins are all made boogeymen by some people here, but in reality these decks are packed with jank, a couple of cards of cards that are fine against us and a lot of cards that just fold to Entreat. Dredge is a bit different and it could be that it is in their favor, but we still have all the tools to compete. If you play well it is not unlikely for you to deck them.

[Zombie]

Elves - Miracles can be fine postboard but G1 is the stuff of nightmares.

[Anen]

How did this thread turn into a Miracles MU analysis?!

[btm10]

How did this thread turn into a Miracles MU analysis?!

People keep whining about it being oppressive and it's important to point out that it's not.

[maharis]

Post Ramp, MUD, Tezzerator, Shardless, Dredge, Team America, Jund, Merfolks, Goblin are bad matchups for Miracle (from 90/10 to 60/40).
Death and Taxes, RUG, Blade, Elves, Omnitell, Show and Tell are balanced matchups (from 55/45 to 45/55).

This seems a little ridiculous. If nearly the entire format was really 45% or better against Miracles there's no way it would be such a consistent top placer.

How did this thread turn into a Miracles MU analysis?!

I gotta take the blame for that. I really don't see much of a difference between Miracles' current dominance of the format and Cruise Delver's, so I think something from it might be about to take a hit. I worry it would be SDT or DTT when I think Counterbalance or Terminus would be better. But everyone seems to think that Miracles is easily beatable.

Edit:

People keep whining about it being oppressive and it's important to point out that it's not.

Have you read the decks to beat forum?

[Julian23]

People keep whining about it being oppressive and it's important to point out that it's not.

It is important to say that it is.

[btm10]

It is important to say that it is.

People are taking time to adapt to Miracles being as good as its gotten, but it's not like Treasure Cruise where the best plan against it was to play your own Cruises and fill your graveyard faster than everyone else. Not only do decks with favorable Miracles matchups exist, new ones can be built. It may have favorable matchups against the decks in the DTBF, but that has more to do with people being slow to change decks than it does with Miracles being so good that there are no other options.

[apple713]

with all the talk about the potential ban of brainstorm has anyone tried to emulate legacy without brainstorm? I know some people from SCG or something did a segment on unbanning of certain cards in legacy to see the effects but I haven't heard about this kind of experiment where they ban something and adapt the format to it.

Does anyone know if this sort of study or experiment has been tested?

[FoolofaTook]

I haven't heard of any attempts to do a Brainstorm-less competition.

I'd like to try that though. Pondering takes a lot of skill. Brainstorm is pretty brainless.

[Julian23]

People are taking time to adapt to Miracles being as good as its gotten, but it's not like Treasure Cruise where the best plan against it was to play your own Cruises and fill your graveyard faster than everyone else. Not only do decks with favorable Miracles matchups exist, new ones can be built. It may have favorable matchups against the decks in the DTBF, but that has more to do with people being slow to change decks than it does with Miracles being so good that there are no other options.

While I agree with most of what you say, nothing of that addresses oppressiveness.

Pondering takes a lot of skill. Brainstorm is pretty brainless.

If you ask me, Brainstorm doesn't need to go. But that doesn't mean that I would be super excited to see who things would develope if one day it actually got the hammer. However it's statements like yours that makes the whole "Ban Brainstorm" crowd look so bad and stifles actual discussion.

[FoolofaTook]

Terminus is the part of Miracles that is oppressive. It sits on the meta and basically blocks all but the tightest attempts at creature aggro. You could say that it blocks all non-Delver attempts at creature aggro, given that Elves is combo and D&T is prison control.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Terminus is the part of Miracles that is oppressive. It sits on the meta and basically blocks all but the tightest attempts at creature aggro. You could say that it blocks all non-Delver attempts at creature aggro, given that Elves is combo and D&T is prison control.

This is pretty accurate. I would include Goblins there as well due to the nature of that deck's haste/card advantage engine - however Goblins is kept out of the format by other forces.

[FoolofaTook]

If you ask me, Brainstorm doesn't need to go. But that doesn't mean that I would be super excited to see who things would develope if one day it actually got the hammer. However it's statements like yours that makes the whole "Ban Brainstorm" crowd look so bad and stifles actual discussion.

Brainstorm sits in your hand as a wildcard, waiting to become extra cards or to find something you need or to put something you don't need back in the pile before you fetch in exchange for something germane to the match. The power level in having an asset like that is out of control in any competition in which the power level of the cards is fairly high to begin with.

It's almost impossible to play Brainstorm wrong. You can get unlucky on the 3 card pull but that's about the only way to have Brainstorm fail for you. You can choose to use it poorly but that's not skill, that's lack of skill and most players who play Legacy are competent enough to get a significant part of Brainstorm's power resolved in their favor when they have it.

Ponder on the other hand, in the absence of Brainstorm, would require significant skill to play correctly. You'd need to be guessing a turn ahead of time in many cases about what cards you really needed this turn and the next turn and when you needed to have them in hand. No waiting until the last second when you weren't sure the way Brainstorm lets you play. A Ponder in the hand is worth nothing beyond a pitch to Force of Will if you played the opportunity represented by it poorly.

That was my point. Brainstorm really can't be played poorly unless you are digging when you don't need to or walking yourself into a locked position. Frequently when you are walking yourself into a locked position it's because you kept the wrong hand and played poorly from that standpoint.

[btm10]

While I agree with most of what you say, nothing of that addresses oppressiveness.

In the interest of discussion, how are you defining oppression? My post addressed half of what I would consider oppression - a deck or archetype (in this case, URx Cruise) that was so much better than everything else in the metagame that there was essentially no choice but to play it. The other half of my definition would be when a single deck dictates the viability of every other deck in the metagame, not only driving other decks out but also enabling decks that prey on it to exist when they would otherwise be too weak to compete against a diverse field. I think it's clear at this point that you need to have some game against Miracles to be a reasonable contender, but I'm less sold on whether or not Miracles is enabling otherwise unviable decks to exist simply because they prey on it.

I'm open to being persuaded that I'm wrong about that last part and that Miracles is truly enabling decks that basically don't do anything but beat Miracles to compete, but if that's the case then Wizards' absolutely needs to take action by banning something.