All B/R update speculation.

[Barook]

No, we are not and that's why I presented the extreme example. We don't have 20 cards overlap in various strategies. We have only 8 in blue decks in general and that's less than the usual "white shell" of Plows/SFM/Batterskull/Jitte and no one cries about that either as the best white package in Legacy.

Maybe people don't bitch about the "white shell" as you call it because it isn't run by 70+% of the format.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

StP sits around ~37% of all decks, SFM ~ 22%. That isn't just restricted to MTGO, before that argument comes in. If you calculate the numbers of the TCdecks March data (since it's the latest one that is completed, unlike the April data in its current state), you get a similiar outcome.

And if we go by numbers, the twelve card "blue shell" BS/FoW/Ponder still outclasses your "white shell" by a huge margin.

[wonderPreaux]

Maybe people don't bitch about the "white shell" as you call it because it isn't run by 70+% of the format.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

StP sits around ~37% of all decks, SFM ~ 22%. That isn't just restricted to MTGO, before that argument comes in. If you calculate the numbers of the TCdecks March data (since it's the latest one that is completed, unlike the April data in its current state), you get a similiar outcome.

And if we go by numbers, the twelve card "blue shell" BS/FoW/Ponder still outclasses your "white shell" by a huge margin.

That is a false equivalence. The white package is one of the most efficient ways to have a board presence, but there are combo and some control decks that don't bother to show up to the board. The main point is there are certain overall functions that seem to be best served by a small package of cards, but no one really seems to have an outcry against them in any case other than the "blue shell", which itself isn't even a concrete concept because it's not as though every deck that wants to Brainstorm or Ponder necessarily wants either/both of FoW or Gitaxian Probe

[Dark Ritual]

Complaining about the blue shell in legacy is akin to complaining about the power shell in vintage. Vintage has a great many auto includes in each color yeah sure they can't ban cards completely there unless they're shahrazad, conspiracies, ante, or dexterity but you don't see people complain about all the black decks in vintage running vampiric and demonic. Just let it lie. You need to take the most extreme measures to make blue not the best color in legacy and I don't want the legacy banlist to be a clusterfuck like modern's.

[Star|Scream]

Complaining about the blue shell in legacy is akin to complaining about the power shell in vintage. Vintage has a great many auto includes in each color yeah sure they can't ban cards completely there unless they're shahrazad, conspiracies, ante, or dexterity but you don't see people complain about all the black decks in vintage running vampiric and demonic. Just let it lie. You need to take the most extreme measures to make blue not the best color in legacy and I don't want the legacy banlist to be a clusterfuck like modern's.

Can we close the thread now?

[supremePINEAPPLE]

Can we close the thread now?

Not really, that same post appears every couple pages so it clearly isn't all there is to say.

[Barook]

That is a false equivalence. The white package is one of the most efficient ways to have a board presence, but there are combo and some control decks that don't bother to show up to the board. The main point is there are certain overall functions that seem to be best served by a small package of cards, but no one really seems to have an outcry against them in any case other than the "blue shell", which itself isn't even a concrete concept because it's not as though every deck that wants to Brainstorm or Ponder necessarily wants either/both of FoW or Gitaxian Probe

It never ceases to amaze me what lenghts people go trying to defend their holy cow.

Every card has their set of best cards. Why do people only bitch about the "blue shell" then? Because it's numerically abundant to the point where another card, Mental Misstep, was banned for exactly the same things Brainstorm (and the blue shell) does to the format, as officially stated by Wizards/Maro:

a) making it overly blue
b) being run by "every" deck (which is around ~72%, according to old tournament results) (that mainly applies to Brainstorm)

Yet Brainstorm remains legal despite being the most powerful card in the format by a wide margin and more powerful than several cards on the banned list.

That is a false equivalence.

[btm10]

That is a false equivalence.

It's actually a double standard, which everyone already admits exists.

[iamajellydonut]

Mental Misstep, was banned for exactly the same things Brainstorm (and the blue shell) does to the format, as officially stated by Wizards/Maro:

Erik Lauer also stated that Mental Misstep was designed for a singular purpose with the understanding that failure to achieve its goal would likely result in a ban. Needless to say, Mental Misstep failed to achieve its goal and was subsiquently banned. Shitty though it may be, Mental Misstep's history is owed more to a poor design philosophy than anything else.

[Barook]

Erik Lauer also stated that Mental Misstep was designed for a singular purpose with the understanding that failure to achieve its goal would likely result in a ban. Needless to say, Mental Misstep failed to achieve its goal and was subsiquently banned. Shitty though it may be, Mental Misstep's history is owed more to a poor design philosophy than anything else.

Force of Will has long been thought of as a card that helps keep combination decks in check in Legacy and Vintage. However, it doesn't directly help decks that aren't playing blue. One idea that was floated was creating a similar card that could be played in nonblue decks. When Phyrexian mana was designed, it was an opportunity to create such a card. R&D wanted a card that could help fight combination decks, and could also fight blue decks by countering cards such as Brainstorm. Clearly printing a card like this has a lot of risk, but there is also the potential for helping the format a lot. The risk is mitigated, because if it turns out poorly, the DCI can ban the card.

Unfortunately, it turned out poorly. Looking at high-level tournaments, instead of results having blue and nonblue decks playing Mental Misstep, there are more blue decks than ever. The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep.

Actually, it had two purposes:

- give nonblue decks fight ways to fight combo
- counter blue horseshit like Brainstorm, which already got a special mention back then (remember, Brainstorm was at 52% in 2011 overall despite the phase where it ruled the format alongside MM with 70% meta share on its own, before Delver became the herald of the end with the release of Innistrad; it was recognized as a problem during MM's design long before Brainstorm went out of control)

The problem with designing anti-blue cards is that they're going to perform best in blue shells unless they're symmetrical. And even then, Thalia was their only success in that regard since Spirit of the Labyrinth turned out to be lame instead of the anti-blue messiah. Even cards like Abrupt Decay were adapted by blue spells.

I doubt we're going to see cards that help breaking the blue dominance instead of making it worse anytime soon.

[maharis]

But Miracles still isn't oppressive and it still isn't present in overwhelming numbers. It's just "a deck" that happens to put up consistent numbers.

The only real difference between Miracles now and Cruise UR Delver is that the second-best deck is slightly closer to its level than was the case with UR Delver. (This is using the TCdecks graphs). You also have to take into account that UR delver was cheaper than Miracles is as well as being a straightforward deck that didn't stick you with long rounds and draws, and Treasure Cruise was banned as soon as possible so there was no way to really see a meta adjustment.

Whether or not Miracles is oppressive is a matter of opinion. I've beaten it a lot, even recently, but I still think it's frustrating to run into it round after round. People say it rewards "smart" play -- not that the people I've played who are on it are bad, but I definitely feel more like I have to play my best every time while they can always just rip Entreat and win. The deck plays Counterbalance, Entreat, Terminus and Jace which are all huge bombs. Lots of smart players played UR delver too because it was so clearly the best deck. I think Miracles is definitely at "clearly the best deck" level. Its only true foil is cloudpost, and while that deck could be played more (I don't think you need Candelabra or Tabernacle to win with it)

Is that bad? I guess that is a matter of opinion as well. I'm just posting data that has Miracles as the best deck for at least a year if not more barring wacky printings, observing a spike in top finishes, and pointing out that the best miracles players on this board say the deck is barely subject to variance at all. It doesn't seem like there's much of a reason to play another deck if you really want to win. Even then I'm not saying something from it should be banned, I'm just saying (like with Brainstorm) that all the evidence is there for it to be eligible to be affected by a ban.

Grixis taking market share from bug, so to speak, is pretty good for fair decks - I hadn't even thought of that.

I think Miracles is fine, personally, and I hate playing against it. In some ways it reminds me of Modern Twin, in others its the exact opposite.

*snip*

But where I'm going with this is that I don't expect a ban for miracles. If omnitell gets oppressive, I could see DTT being banned, but I don't expect that to happen either. We're going to keep seeing a bunch of miracles players stuck in the draw bracket, and the couple good ones make it to the top 8 consistently, and that feels OK to me.

We don't really disagree. I do think there's little standing in the way of Omnitell right now and if we have Miracles + Omni (and even the Grixis deck that preys on them) at the top for a while I think DTT is as good as gone.

As far as lands goes, its an expensive deck to build optimally (tabernacles and such) which means less players really commit to it, and miracles is going to be a rough matchup for any slow deck that runs singleton threats. If they started playing some raging ravines the miracles matchup might get a lot better (just speculation on my part). The point is that lands is poorly positioned for a Miracles Omnitell meta because it wants to be in between those two decks.

As someone who has had my share of Creeping Tar Pits Plowed,

No, we are not and that's why I presented the extreme example. We don't have 20 cards overlap in various strategies. We have only 8 in blue decks in general and that's less than the usual "white shell" of Plows/SFM/Batterskull/Jitte and no one cries about that either as the best white package in Legacy.

As usual you are being intentionally obtuse.

Omnitell, the king of cantrip decks, plays 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force of Will, 4 Preordain, 4 Gitaxian Probe, and 4 Dig Through Time (a total of 24 cards). Miracles, Delver, Storm, whatever you want to say all play at least 12 of those same cards, and sometimes up to 20 of the same. So no, there isn't an exact 20 cards that are in a bunch of different decks. It's more like "You can play any 20 cantrips that you want, as long as you play 20 cantrips."

It took me a while to explicate why I don't like this, and the answer is that cantrips + fetches are SO good that there is no reason to even ATTEMPT a deck that tries anything different for advantage. Further, I disagree that the consistency makes the game more about skill, because the only cards that make it into a format are the ones that play nice with cantrips + fetches. When people say ban Delver or DTT, I have to laugh -- we can't deal with 1/1 for U? We can't figure out a way to beat an 8-mana spell? Of course they aren't that in a vacuum, but they also aren't the vacuum. Meanwhile there are cards that are actually efficiently costed or have really interesting/cool effects that are left on the sidelines because in the extra half-turn you might need to get them online you simply die to the perfectly sculpted hand -- unless you play cantrips yourself, but then of course you run the risk of just running a bad version of an existing deck.

[Lemnear]

Maybe people don't bitch about the "white shell" as you call it because it isn't run by 70+% of the format.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy

StP sits around ~37% of all decks, SFM ~ 22%. That isn't just restricted to MTGO, before that argument comes in. If you calculate the numbers of the TCdecks March data (since it's the latest one that is completed, unlike the April data in its current state), you get a similiar outcome.

And if we go by numbers, the twelve card "blue shell" BS/FoW/Ponder still outclasses your "white shell" by a huge margin.

Fantastic! Wasn't Treasure Cruise also "only" in ~40% of decks? According to that logic we need to ban Plows immediately or do numbers not matter in that case? ;)

Or do we change the topic back to "colors"?

[Mr Miagi]

I think we all agree: Ban Island, end of discussion, let's go grab a beer

[Barook]

Fantastic! Wasn't Treasure Cruise also "only" in ~40% of decks? According to that logic we need to ban Plows immediately or do numbers not matter in that case? ;)

Or do we change the topic back to "colors"?

Now you're just taking stuff out of context.

StP doesn't elevate the rest of the "white shell" to 75% meta share. If 75% of the meta ran Stoneforge Mystic, there would be something massively wrong with the format, too.

[Lemnear]

As usual you are being intentionally obtuse.

Omnitell, the king of cantrip decks, plays 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Force of Will, 4 Preordain, 4 Gitaxian Probe, and 4 Dig Through Time (a total of 24 cards). Miracles, Delver, Storm, whatever you want to say all play at least 12 of those same cards, and sometimes up to 20 of the same. So no, there isn't an exact 20 cards that are in a bunch of different decks. It's more like "You can play any 20 cantrips that you want, as long as you play 20 cantrips."

It took me a while to explicate why I don't like this, and the answer is that cantrips + fetches are SO good that there is no reason to even ATTEMPT a deck that tries anything different for advantage. Further, I disagree that the consistency makes the game more about skill, because the only cards that make it into a format are the ones that play nice with cantrips + fetches. When people say ban Delver or DTT, I have to laugh -- we can't deal with 1/1 for U? We can't figure out a way to beat an 8-mana spell? Of course they aren't that in a vacuum, but they also aren't the vacuum. Meanwhile there are cards that are actually efficiently costed or have really interesting/cool effects that are left on the sidelines because in the extra half-turn you might need to get them online you simply die to the perfectly sculpted hand -- unless you play cantrips yourself, but then of course you run the risk of just running a bad version of an existing deck.

So I'm "obtuse" and you throw the bolded statement into the thread? Funny, as I can't imagine a Legacy deck with 20 cantrips so point me at one. You try to make a point because we have 1 deck in the metagame which runs all the named cards and ALL other blue Legacy decks only run a few of these?

If you want to fuck with Brainstorm, Cabal Ritual, Treasure Cruise, DRS, Dig Through Time, Ponder, SDT and Co. once and for all, you need to ban Fetches. Everything else is just politicking and showing a lack of understanding what really fuels the supreme card selection. Period.

[Lemnear]

Now you're just taking stuff out of context.

StP doesn't elevate the rest of the "white shell" to 75% meta share. If 75% of the meta ran Stoneforge Mystic, there would be something massively wrong with the format, too.

"Out of context". Cute.

"~40% Plows is fine; ~40% Treasure Cruise is not"
"95% of decks run 8+ fetchlands is fine; 75% of decks running 4 Brainstorms is not" #BecauseBlue
"~40% penetration is fine; ~70% penetration is not" #RandomStandards

Edit: To be honest, without Plowshares in the format and in ~40% of all decks played, a lot more creatures would be playable. Ergo you can say that Plows stifle diversity

[nedleeds]

Now you're just taking stuff out of context.

StP doesn't elevate the rest of the "white shell" to 75% meta share. If 75% of the meta ran Stoneforge Mystic, there would be something massively wrong with the format, too.

Well, the card would be banned. Outside of basic lands. Look at Survival. It wasn't 75% and it got banned, neither was Treasure Cruise, a worse blue card than Brainstorm with a lower usage rate than either and WotC banned it.

[solidbass]

I don't think miracles is the problem with the format but rather the result of what the format has become. Miracles relies on homogeneity to be good, anything that provides a different strategy like MUD, post, and probably nic fit it just loses.
I have no idea what the solution is here, I doubt even Wizards knows, but banning Brainstorm should not be the first thing tried.
Since this thread is already full of ridiculous thoughts, here's mine: Ban TNN, that card is so lame and then maybe Goblins will return to crush Miracles. Who doesn't want to see Goblins back on the scene?

[iamajellydonut]

Ban TNN, that card is so lame and then maybe Goblins will return

This doesn't make any fucking sense.

[Barook]

Treasure Cruise, a worse blue card than Brainstorm with a lower usage rate than either and WotC banned it.

Worse than Brainstorm? Debatable.

TC definitely enabled a retarded playstyle that punished your opponent for trying to interact with you in pretty much any kind of form. DTT isn't much better in that regard, either.

[Lemnear]

I don't think miracles is the problem with the format but rather the result of what the format has become. Miracles relies on homogeneity to be good, anything that provides a different strategy like MUD, post, and probably nic fit it just loses.
I have no idea what the solution is here, I doubt even Wizards knows, but banning Brainstorm should not be the first thing tried.
Since this thread is already full of ridiculous thoughts, here's mine: Ban TNN, that card is so lame and then maybe Goblins will return to crush Miracles. Who doesn't want to see Goblins back on the scene?

You think TNN holds Goblins back and not the whole range on combo-decks in the format and the fact that the deck has a pretty horrible manacurve by todays standards?