All B/R update speculation.

[Lemnear]

The raw power of the cantrip cartel, especially when supported with Dig, completely eclipses the card selection tools of other colors in quality. Elves is the only thing that comes close, and it's noticeably slower at getting things going.

Other key areas:
Removal: W, B, R
Removing noncreature permanents: G, W, R
Combo hate: U, B, W
Graveyard hate: W, G, B, colorless

There are choices there. If you want a card selection engine, though, it's blue or go home. The others are completely outclassed in comparison, barring a couple narrow ones.

But that is that blue is all about! It's the color of Library- & handmanipulation since Alpha and complaining that it's blue that has the best and most options among all colors is totally off.

I can totally get behind if people spit hate for WotC printing Delver, SCM and TNN in that color, but library Manipulation? What's next? A color-based crusade because black has no tools (and I mean "no" tools literally instead of subpar ones) to catch up with white and greens enchantment/Artifact removal?

Edit:
For Gods sake, storm players have to Splash green for the effect of enchantment/Artifact removal. It's no way different than splashing blue if you want access to Library manipulation, but I guess I have to read some smartass posts soon talking about bullshit like "if you splash blue, you want to run FoW also and then you have to run 20 blue cards to support that!"

[Kathal]

But that is that blue is all about! It's the color of Library- & handmanipulation since Alpha and complaining that it's blue that has the best and most options among all colors is totally off.

I can totally get behind if people spit hate for WotC printing Delver, SCM and TNN in that color, but library Manipulation? What's next? A color-based crusade because black has no tools (and I mean "no" tools literally instead of subpar ones) to catch up with white and greens enchantment/Artifact removal?

Edit:
For Gods sake, storm players have to Splash green for the effect of enchantment/Artifact removal. It's no way different than splashing blue if you want access to Library manipulation, but I guess I have to read some smartass posts soon talking about bullshit like "if you splash blue, you want to run FoW also and then you have to run 20 blue cards to support that!"

Totally agree here (and I think this one of the most correct posts regards this topic).

Greetings,
Kathal

[maharis]

But that is that blue is all about! It's the color of Library- & handmanipulation since Alpha and complaining that it's blue that has the best and most options among all colors is totally off.

That doesn't mean that Brainstorm isn't overpowered. How do you not see that? You seem like a smart person. This argument could just as easily apply to Treasure Cruise. I don't think anyone disagrees that blue should be best at library manipulation, just not that it should be so much better as to constrain the format to only cards that work if your plan is to Brainstorm & Ponder all day.

And actually, blue was the color of card advantage in Alpha (Ancestral Recall, Braingeyser) while card selection was given to green (Natural Selection). The next card selection cards printed were Visions and Sylvan Library in Legends, neither of which are blue.

It takes until Ice Age with Brainstorm, Diabolic Vision, Elemental Augury, Krovikan Sorcerer, Mesmeric Trance, Portent before you get blue "card selection." (And of course Brainstorm pre-fetches and Portent as a slowtrip were not quite as good as they are/Ponder is now.) After that things get nutty.

I can totally get behind if people spit hate for WotC printing Delver, SCM and TNN in that color, but library Manipulation? What's next? A color-based crusade because black has no tools (and I mean "no" tools literally instead of subpar ones) to catch up with white and greens enchantment/Artifact removal?

As much as a bummer as it is that these cards are all blue, in the end it doesn't really matter. The ability of cantrips to fix mana and sculpt the perfect hand means that even if Delver and SCM were red and TNN was white they would still be at their best in decks that already pretty much exist (with the corner case of those decks having the slightest percentage hit in matchups where Force of Will is relevant as the blue count would be that much smaller. But even then we're talking about 4-6 blue cards at most being taken out of decks that have 20-30 blue cards in them already.)

In fact, for all the "strategic diversity" people, you could make the point that if Delver was red, we wouldn't even have a BUG tempo deck.

Edit:
For Gods sake, storm players have to Splash green for the effect of enchantment/Artifact removal. It's no way different than splashing blue if you want access to Library manipulation, but I guess I have to read some smartass posts soon talking about bullshit like "if you splash blue, you want to run FoW also and then you have to run 20 blue cards to support that!"

Well, that's not true. You don't have to splash green, as white and red have artifact removal and white has enchantment removal. You choose to splash green because it is the best at it. It's the same reason you play cantrips over Mirri's Guile, Natural Selection, Sylvan Library, et al.

The difference is that the distance between how good green is at enchantment/artifact removal and the other colors is not even close to how good blue is at card selection. Miracles doesn't splash green for that effect, for example, it just plays Wear/Tear because it's good enough. At the same time, the miracles deck isn't setting up its deck with the green enchantments either.

[rufus]

But that is that blue is all about! It's the color of Library- & handmanipulation since Alpha and complaining that it's blue that has the best and most options among all colors is totally off. ...

I don't understand how 'color pie' is in any way a relevant topic for B/R considerations. There are plenty of out-of-color cards that we never talk about: Land Equilibrium,High Tide,Mind Bomb,Delver of Secrets and Recall readily come to mind. Moreover, WotC's design philosophy seems to be 'blue gets everything', so they're not going to ban blue cards for out of color capability.

The complaint is about power level, and the apparent limit of viable options in legacy:
1. Play mono-color.
2. Play blue.

[iamajellydonut]

out-of-color cards ... Delver of Secrets ...

"lolololol"

[Star|Scream]

I don't understand how 'color pie' is in any way a relevant topic for B/R considerations. There are plenty of out-of-color cards that we never talk about: Land Equilibrium,High Tide,Mind Bomb,Delver of Secrets and Recall readily come to mind. Moreover, WotC's design philosophy seems to be 'blue gets everything', so they're not going to ban blue cards for out of color capability.

The complaint is about power level, and the apparent limit of viable options in legacy:
1. Play mono-color.
2. Play blue.

What's wrong with that?

[Lemnear]

That doesn't mean that Brainstorm isn't overpowered. How do you not see that? You seem like a smart person. This argument could just as easily apply to Treasure Cruise. I don't think anyone disagrees that blue should be best at library manipulation, just not that it should be so much better as to constrain the format to only cards that work if your plan is to Brainstorm & Ponder all day.

Brainstorm + Ponder + Fetchlands IS stupid good in terms of card selection especially compared to decks which have, more or less, play the game based in random topdecks and sure these cards mark the cream of the crop for minimizing the randomness which is/was the games core, but is inevitable for tournament players to profit from. There is no-one arguing that fact, but it appears to be a matter of perception if that's an actual Problem by itself

I like to pick up the Vintage example from time to time and point to the mana-artifacts as the fundamental and shared core for the format to operate across various archetypes and strategies. No one complains that you "have to play SoLoCryMoxen" in Order to be compeditive. Players accepted these cards as the Fundament of the format to have the best shot at winning (Dredge aside). How is that any different from BS+Ponder+Fetches in these regards other than the color itself? As long as Moxen power Workshop decks, Storm and Mana Drain decks there is no Problem in Vintage and I don't see one for Legacy if Brainstorm is played in Combo, Conteol and Aggro/Tempo at the same time. If the core however extends and indeed streamlines viable building to a single deck or archetype, (We have seen this with Gush+Brainstorm+Ponder+MerchantScroll or with Ponder+Brainstorm+Probe+TreasureCruise), Action is needed and is usually taken.

The Problem is that people give too much shit about colors and not enough about the effects they want in their decks

And actually, blue was the color of card advantage in Alpha (Ancestral Recall, Braingeyser) while card selection was given to green (Natural Selection). The next card selection cards printed were Visions and Sylvan Library in Legends, neither of which are blue.

That's why I called it Handmanipulation and dodged any statements of gauging like "advantage" or "quality" ;)

[Megadeus]

The difference is that the Moxen in vintage are free and therefore any deck can feasible access these pieces. Hell you can run off color moxen if all you need is a mana boost. In Legacy though, playing brainstorm isn't simply, slot it into your deck. It is now you play BS, 6-10 fetches, and since you're there you probably play at least ponder. And since you're there theres generally enough reason to go into enough blue for force

[FoolofaTook]

We're getting all warped around in the discussion here. B&R is about power level, format warping and ubiquity. Brainstorm meets all 3 criteria. It's the most powerful card in Legacy, a fact that only a few deny. The format now revolves around the cantrip cartel that Brainstorm sits at the root of, again only a few deny this. Brainstorm itself is in 75%+ of top 8's overall.

This is a simple decision for WotC to make. That they are having this much difficulty making the decision suggests strongly that they need to change the decision makers.

[Star|Scream]

The difference is that the Moxen in vintage are free and therefore any deck can feasible access these pieces. Hell you can run off color moxen if all you need is a mana boost. In Legacy though, playing brainstorm isn't simply, slot it into your deck. It is now you play BS, 6-10 fetches, and since you're there you probably play at least ponder. And since you're there theres generally enough reason to go into enough blue for force

So it would be better if brainstorm was colorless and/or free?

[Blastoderm]

That looks like an awesome Top 8!!!!

32/32 brainstorm?

[iGrok]

We're getting all warped around in the discussion here. B&R is about power level, format warping and ubiquity. Brainstorm meets all 3 criteria. It's the most powerful card in Legacy, a fact that only a few deny. The format now revolves around the cantrip cartel that Brainstorm sits at the root of, again only a few deny this. Brainstorm itself is in 75%+ of top 8's overall.

This is a simple decision for WotC to make. That they are having this much difficulty making the decision suggests strongly that they need to change the decision makers.

Every time you say "cantrip cartel", I giggle. You should write propaganda for a living.

I believe the root of our disagreement is about the purpose of the Ban list: It is about "Will banning this card make the format better?", which is a very subjective question. Power Level and "format warping" are subjective measures, while ubiquity is objective, but these are not the only considerations for a card's banning.

Power Level: There will always be a most-powerful card.
"Format Warping": Depends on your definitions. As Lemnear said, some people judge formats by colors, some judge by strategies.
Ubiquity: Yes, we can measure the %/Max of a card's play, so this is a more-good measure.

There are also things like:
Average Player Opinion: In general do players prefer to have the card in the format or not?
Immediate Impact: Is the card a must-answer? i.e. does it win the game when you play it, or are there opportunities for opponents to fight it long-term?

Multiple subjective criteria don't make for easy, or universally agreed decisions.

So where does Brainstorm fit?

Power Level: Probably the most powerful card in Legacy.
Format Warping: WotC seems to judge by strategies more than by colors, so No.
Ubiquity: Yes, it is fairly ubiquitous.
Average Player Opinion: Good luck finding a representative sample.
Immediate Impact: Brainstorm does not win the game (as opposed to, say, Survival, Hermit Druid, Tinker, or Yawgmoth's Will).

Anyways, thats my 2¢.

[Barook]

I like to pick up the Vintage example from time to time and point to the mana-artifacts as the fundamental and shared core for the format to operate across various archetypes and strategies. No one complains that you "have to play SoLoCryMoxen" in Order to be compeditive. Players accepted these cards as the Fundament of the format to have the best shot at winning (Dredge aside). How is that any different from BS+Ponder+Fetches in these regards other than the color itself? As long as Moxen power Workshop decks, Storm and Mana Drain decks there is no Problem in Vintage and I don't see one for Legacy if Brainstorm is played in Combo, Conteol and Aggro/Tempo at the same time. If the core however extends and indeed streamlines viable building to a single deck or archetype, (We have seen this with Gush+Brainstorm+Ponder+MerchantScroll or with Ponder+Brainstorm+Probe+TreasureCruise), Action is needed and is usually taken.

That completely ignores that Moxen are still restricted, because they don't ban cards in Vintage for power reasons. If they banned cards instead of restricting them, Moxen would be a goner. Also, if you want to mention Vintage, let's not forget that Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted there for power reasons since 2008. Both scale immensely with the power level of the format where they dig - which has increased alot in the meantime. The percentage of Brainstorm in Legacy jumped with each stupid printing of blue-related cards a few percentages each time, and continues to do so.

Survival was also a fun card before they reached a threshold of printing too much stupid shit to keep it around any longer. That's what can happen to cards that scale with power level.

But that is that blue is all about! It's the color of Library- & handmanipulation since Alpha and complaining that it's blue that has the best and most options among all colors is totally off.

Power level is a concern. Black also has tutors since Alpha, but there's a reason why Infernal Tutor is in the format while Demonic Tutor is not.

For Gods sake, storm players have to Splash green for the effect of enchantment/Artifact removal. It's no way different than splashing blue if you want access to Library manipulation, but I guess I have to read some smartass posts soon talking about bullshit like "if you splash blue, you want to run FoW also and then you have to run 20 blue cards to support that!"

Storm doesn't have to splash green for removal. Blue has bounce to deal with all kinds of permanents. Players just choose to because AD being an uncounterable, permanent solution is more convenient, especially against Counterbalance.

[rufus]

...
Power Level: Probably the most powerful card in Legacy.
Format Warping: WotC seems to judge by strategies more than by colors, so No.
Ubiquity: Yes, it is fairly ubiquitous.
Average Player Opinion: Good luck finding a representative sample.
Immediate Impact: Brainstorm does not win the game
...

Would your assessment of Mental Misstep while it was legal have been any different by those criteria?

[Barook]

Would your assessment of Mental Misstep while it was legal have been any different by those criteria?

This

So where does Brainstorm fit?

Power Level: Probably the most powerful card in Legacy.
Format Warping: WotC seems to judge by strategies more than by colors, so No.
Ubiquity: Yes, it is fairly ubiquitous.
Average Player Opinion: Good luck finding a representative sample.
Immediate Impact: Brainstorm does not win the game (as opposed to, say, Survival, Hermit Druid, Tinker, or Yawgmoth's Will).

So where does Mental Misstep fit?

Power Level: Probably the second most powerful card in Legacy, after Brainstorm
Format Warping: The DTB section still shows various decks with different strategies being viable in the month were it was banned:



Having 4 top decks is nothing out of the ordinary. We also had months with only 4 top decks in the DTB section.

Ubiquity: Yes, it was fairly ubiquitous - same amount as Brainstorm is now
Average Player Opinion: How is that even a criteria you can measure?
Immediate Impact: Mental Misstep does not win the game, either

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Brainstorm + Ponder + Fetchlands IS stupid good, but players accepted these cards as the Fundament of the format to have the best shot at winning (Dredge aside). How is that any Problem?

The acceptation ain't that 100% as you tend to make it, in fact some ppl argue against this

Problem is that people give too much shit about colors and not enough about the effects they want in their decks

Problem is that some ppl give too much shit about thinking how they're reading shit about colours while there's clearly an argument about power level of BS...


EDIT:

So where does Mental Misstep fit?

counter card and activate on spell effects
fix and removing stacks

[iGrok]

Player Opinion is definitely the hardest one to measure. But, I don't think that you can say that there are more people who enjoy Mental Misstep in the format than people who enjoy Brainstorm in the format.

[Barook]

Player Opinion is definitely the hardest one to measure. But, I don't think that you can say that there are more people who enjoy Mental Misstep in the format than people who enjoy Brainstorm in the format.

Still, how does player opinion matter? Wizards doesn't give two shits about that. People love Survival. Is it unbanned? Nope.

Erik Lauer sits on his ass for years doing nothing (until the recent TC ban) and people applaud how well he manages the format. The same guy who set up clear conditions for a card ban (Mental Misstep) and doesn't follow through when exactly the same reasons apply (Brainstorm) because he doesn't give a fuck. Just as he's the same guy who assrapes Modern for years now with stupid bans despite being the head developer of Magic, thus being capable of printing card to fix the goddamn format for good.

Edit: How much he cares about Legacy is also shown in said ban announcement:

- Modern: Wall of text explaining the reasoning behind the bans
- Legacy: 2.5 lines which can be summed up as "Too much UR Delver. Fuck that."

Has there been any statement of him regarding Legacy since the MM ban and the TC ban?

[iGrok]

Still, how does player opinion matter? Wizards doesn't give two shits about that. People love Survival. Is it unbanned? Nope.

Erik Lauer sits on his ass for years doing nothing (until the recent TC ban) and people applaud how well he manages the format. The same guy who set up clear conditions for a card ban (Mental Misstep) and doesn't follow through when exactly the same reasons apply (Brainstorm) because he doesn't give a fuck. Just as he's the same guy who assrapes Modern for years now with stupid bans despite being the head developer of Magic, thus being capable of printing card to fix the goddamn format for good.

Player opinion does matter, but its not the only thing that matters.

Brainstorm is proactive, while Misstep is reactive. Does this impact the decision? Probably. Is it the most important factor? No. But I guess Proactive vs Reactive is another factor in banning or not.

Survival is a must-answer card, while Brainstorm isn't. Again, that isn't the only factor at play, but it's one of them.

[apple713]

Player opinion does matter, but its not the only thing that matters.

Brainstorm is proactive, while Misstep is reactive. Does this impact the decision? Probably. Is it the most important factor? No. But I guess Proactive vs Reactive is another factor in banning or not.

Survival is a must-answer card, while Brainstorm isn't. Again, that isn't the only factor at play, but it's one of them.

player opinion has 0 effect. Unfortunately MTG banned list isn't a democracy, Its a dictatorship. We have a pretty healthy community here. Our voices probably represent the majority of views in varying proportions of what all of the legacy community believes, and yet we see very little change year to year.

What i don't understand is why they are not more aggressive with their unbanning in legacy? There are only 2 legacy tournaments that wizards gives a shit about...if they even care that much. They could schedule the unbanning of a lot of cards so that it has no effect on the Legacy GP's. Other tournaments would develop the meta after the unbanning and if it was warped they could fix it before the next legacy gp. So many possible solutions but they don't give a FCUK!