All B/R update speculation.

[FoolofaTook]

It won't work, and besides: you're describing Modern.

No, I'm describing Modern + duals + Force of Will and Daze + an absurd number of OP threats (Show and Tell, LED related mayhem and the Elves combos come to mind immediately).

Legacy is only all about Brainstorm and Ponder if WotC continues to let it be all about Brainstorm and Ponder.

[Zombie]

No, I'm describing Modern + duals + Force of Will and Daze + an absurd number of OP threats (Show and Tell, LED related mayhem and the Elves combos come to mind immediately).

And Ancestral and StP and the actual card Counterspell. And Preordain, Jace, Library, Green Sun, Loam, Recurring Nightmare, Sol lands, Cradle, Sanctum and the decks they fuel, and the list goes on. There's a ton of Legacy outside Ponder and BS.

[Lemnear]

And Ancestral and StP and the actual card Counterspell. And Preordain, Jace, Library, Green Sun, Loam, Recurring Nightmare, Sol lands, Cradle, Sanctum and the decks they fuel, and the list goes on. There's a ton of Legacy outside Ponder and BS.

You are talking about Preordain + SDT taking the slots and turning Legacy into UW Blade mirrors? (Hyperbole)

[FoolofaTook]

You are talking about Preordain + SDT taking the slots and turning Legacy into UW Blade mirrors? (Hyperbole)

If that happened Jund would rule the meta. I don't think it will happen that way though. I think Preordain will take 4 of the slots and then we're up in the air as to where the shell goes from there. I think the meta would be substantially less blue, probably back towards the 50/50 thing we lived with from 2008 to 2010.

[Lemnear]

If that happened Jund would rule the meta. I don't think it will happen that way though. I think Preordain will take 4 of the slots and then we're up in the air as to where the shell goes from there. I think the meta would be substantially less blue, probably back towards the 50/50 thing we lived with from 2008 to 2010.

So killing a lot of decks, reducing viable options and streamlining decks is just fine for the mere 20% drop of blue in the meta? Why is 50% blue fine and 70% isn't?

[FoolofaTook]

So killing a lot of decks, reducing viable options and streamlining decks is just fine for the mere 20% drop of blue in the meta? Why is 50% blue fine and 70% isn't?

You're not killing a lot of decks you're just making them less consistent. In the process you're re-opening the option for decks like Zoo and Suicide to re-emerge and for decks like Jund and Maverick to compete on a more even basis.

It's not about what percentage is correct it's about not making one vector of play a no-brainer which is where we are at the moment. The vector you really want to use is blue cantrips to support whatever else you're doing. There is one very effective hate deck against that which is widely played, which is Death and Taxes. However D&T is not consistent enough to make more than rare appearances in the DTB section. Same for Elves, which is also widely played.

What's missing in this meta and has been for quite awhile is effective creature swarm strategies. That's because using cantrips to find 3 very powerful creatures is better than playing 3 very powerful creatures plus another 3 to 4 sets at the next tier down. It's the cantrips that cause the problem. You're always going to have 3 or 4 creatures that are the best. If that's all you have to play because you can reliably find them then very few other creatures will ever be played.

[HSCK]

So killing a lot of decks, reducing viable options and streamlining decks is just fine for the mere 20% drop of blue in the meta? Why is 50% blue fine and 70% isn't?

Because Blue is evil and everyone one here is sure that attendance would skyrocket if the monster is slain. Also, Miracles and Storm are basically the same deck, etc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So killing a lot of decks, reducing viable options and streamlining decks is just fine?

That's Brainstorm's fault. Exactly what the card and the color blue does.

[Chatto]

Is there a possibility to unban cards instead banning cards? Could be interesting as well. Unless something dramatic happens BS will never be banned.

[Zilla]

That's Brainstorm's fault. Exactly what the card and the color blue does.

Which decks specifically has Brainstorm pushed out of the meta?

[apple713]

Which decks specifically has Brainstorm pushed out of the meta?

EVERY deck that would be efficient without it's inclusion are only made less attractive by its inclusion in the format. Thus having it in the format is likely to increase the number of decks playing or at the least, splashing blue for its inclusion.

remove brainstorm and its not likely people are splashing blue for ponder...maybe in modern but not legacy


The only way to really rebalance the banned and restricted list is to have a mass unbanning and then start chipping away at it like new.

If only they had a way to test this without affecting tournament play?... oh wait they do... MODO...and since its online the format adapts faster too.

[Dice_Box]

I would argue the amount of decks that going to be "Splashing Blue" are in fact very low. Most decks are at the core Blue that is splashing other colours so the argument that Brainstorm would lead people to splash and play it I think is fundamentally wrong. People are interested in more than just Brainstorm and the lists we see reflect that. Ponder, Daze, Force, Probe, this class of cards together make a core of cards that is much stronger than the sum of its parts. People have little incentive to splash for Brainstorm if they are not in need of it. People though are incentivised to play that core of cards. Brainstorm in this regard is another cog in a mechine and not itself the mechanism of the formats destruction.

[maharis]

I'll meet halfway. TNN and Terminus are annoying and somewhat obnoxious, but they really require a lot of support and setup before that. I wouldn't miss either, but I think they're fine.

I think that banning Show & Tell and Counterbalance would be enough to make non-blue consistency engines worth playing, because there's a lot less "whoops I lose because I can't interact with this." Further, neither discard nor hatebears are as effective against either deck as they are against decks like Storm (which needs raw cards in hand to an extent, and is churning through mana).

The presence of both forces non-blue decks to devote more of their sideboards to deal with one or the other or both, diluting their matchups elsewhere. Most non-blue consistency engines are grindy by nature, so they should be able to grind out blue fair decks with higher card quality before getting an advantage engine online. Nic Fit is a good example -- the deck is very solid and actually pretty consistent, but has to completely warp itself to have a decent shot against Miracles or S&T, even BUG versions.

But I think Legacy players talking about banning a 1/1 for U sound soft and whiny. If this is the format where you have to be prepared, even after the bannings I suggest, to prepare for turn 2-3 kills from Storm and/or Elves, or start your turn 2 knowing that if you pass you're getting Batterskull dumped in your lap, or stop in your upkeep to have your only land ported, we should be able to to deal with a conditional 3/2 flyer with no natural defenses.

"But maharis, why is Legacy better with no Miracles and with no Show & Tell?"

The same reason it's better with no Survival of the Fittest or Flash. (And there's no reason Miracles couldn't exist still, it would just be more vulnerable early). If these spells survive the stack, the path uphill is far more difficult.

[Finn]

What's missing in this meta and has been for quite awhile is effective creature swarm strategies. That's because using cantrips to find 3 very powerful creatures is better than playing 3 very powerful creatures plus another 3 to 4 sets at the next tier down. It's the cantrips that cause the problem. You're always going to have 3 or 4 creatures that are the best. If that's all you have to play because you can reliably find them then very few other creatures will ever be played.

QFT

But Lemnear has been told all of these things quite a few times. I don't think his mind can be changed by stating the same ideas again.

Which decks specifically has Brainstorm pushed out of the meta?

@Zilla: I don't know that this is a fruitful way to approach that question. While I am confident that you could point a finger at stuff like the Loam decks and Maverick which have spiffy card engines of their own, these are inferior to just having cantrips. The Gentleman's Agreement fiasco was particularly funny/foolish because they banned the wrong card. That is to say, Reanimator, Show and Tell and Storm are all still doing fairly well because Mystical Tutor was not the best enabler they had. But the point I want to make is that the decks don't so much get shoved OUT as they do never get IN in the first place. Hence, we never sear about them because they can't dent the format.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

But I think Legacy players talking about banning a 1/1 for U sound soft and whiny. If this is the format where you have to be prepared, even after the bannings I suggest, to prepare for turn 2-3 kills from Storm and/or Elves, or start your turn if you pass you're getting Batterskull dumped in your lap, or stop in your upkeep to have your only land ported, we should be able to to deal with a conditional 3/2 flyer with no natural defenses..

This is incredibly disingenuous, and you should know that

Strictly speaking, Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape are both 1/1's but no one evaluates those cards like that, they are more often 2/2-3/3 or 2/3, and are evaluated as such, the same thing with delver, sure it's a bit more conditional (it needs to flip as opposed to playing lands) but the condition it needs to flip is incredibly easy to achieve, in any format with good disruption, delver is a 3/2 flier.

Sure we need to be prepared for those things, but those things aren't backed with daze and force, elves isn't going to daze your toxic deluge, stone blade doesn't usually stifle your liliana, and storm doesn't typically hymn you, delver is going to, and, more often then not,when you do kill it, it's costed you a lot to do so.

[Lemnear]

You're not killing a lot of decks you're just making them less consistent. In the process you're re-opening the option for decks like Zoo and Suicide to re-emerge and for decks like Jund and Maverick to compete on a more even basis.

You keep repeating the stupid idea that people will keep playing decks like Miracles even without Brainstorm to make a point? I commented on this bullshit already three times and gave reasons why it is nonsense. I don't know why you are running in circles here.

What's missing in this meta and has been for quite awhile is effective creature swarm strategies. That's because using cantrips to find 3 very powerful creatures is better than playing 3 very powerful creatures plus another 3 to 4 sets at the next tier down. It's the cantrips that cause the problem. You're always going to have 3 or 4 creatures that are the best. If that's all you have to play because you can reliably find them then very few other creatures will ever be played.

I don't get the idea why you think "creature swarm" should be a viable and successful strategy in Legacy. Is there ANY official guideline that kt has to be the case? It's YOUR OWN point of view. It's on the same level as demanding that Mill should be a successful strategy in Vintage and that WotC should ban all cards that oppress Mill from being competitive.

I'm far too liberal in regards to strategies and them dying over the years as the game evolves to stick to the idea of a certain everlasting metagame structure. Vintage is nowhere near the format it was like 8 years ago as the only playable creatures were Goblin Welder and Darksteel Colossus for example. Ergo calling a format flawed, if strategies die out is idiocy. You guys didn't care as Landstill died, did you? You however make a big deal if Death and Taxes replaces Goblins as the formats prime mono-colored Vial.dec! You didn't gave a fuck as UG Madness died, but you cried as Manadorks (Hierarch/DRS) fueled TNN instead of KotR

QFT

But Lemnear has been told all of these things quite a few times. I don't think his mind can be changed by stating the same ideas again.

I have indeed talked about possible outcomes and different scenarios several times, then the discussion abates just to pop up a few weeks later with the same flawed logic brought up by the same people (see FoolofaTook) and I opt to stop my repeating one-sided analysis which only met by "but color-equality!" or other casual bullshit and straight move to insults as those usually seem to provoke more clever responses than logic lines of thought.

[Zilla]

Which decks specifically has Brainstorm pushed out of the meta?

@Zilla: I don't know that this is a fruitful way to approach that question.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I was responding to a comment that framed it in this context.

Brainstorm doesn't really edge out decks - it just forces those decks to run Brainstorm also. Colors are so easy to splash in this format that running blue for the Brainstorm/Fetch engine is elementary. Whether this is a good or bad thing is most certainly a matter of debate (see 500+ pages of this thread,) but it is what it is. It can easily be argued that as many or more decks are propped up by the consistency of the Brainstorm engine than are pushed out by it.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I have indeed talked about possible outcomes and different scenarios several times, then the discussion abates just to pop up a few weeks later with the same flawed logic brought up by the same people (see FoolofaTook) and I opt to stop my repeating one-sided analysis which only met by "but color-equality!" or other casual bullshit and straight move to insults as those usually seem to provoke more clever responses than logic lines of thought.

I like your humility and openess to discussion. Clearly, calling other people's opinions a "flawed logic" while bringing your own personal taste as a God-given knowledge is how a debate should look like.
Your one-sided analysis have nothing to do with power of Brainstorm and the fact that the card is miles ahead of anything else available in Legacy pool is what should be discussed, not the casual bullshit like "I love to play with a card" etc. etc., 500 pages.

[Lemnear]

I like your humility and openess to discussion. Clearly, calling other people's opinions a "flawed logic" while bringing your own personal taste as a God-given knowledge is how a debate should look like.
Your one-sided analysis have nothing to do with power of Brainstorm and the fact that the card is miles ahead of anything else available in Legacy pool is what should be discussed, not the casual bullshit like "I love to play with a card" etc. etc., 500 pages.

Do you pass on the ignorance of not-reading-but-commenting to your children or teach you them to comprehend what was written? "Swarm Creature Strategies should be part of Legacy", "All colors should be equal", "Miracles and SneakShow are playable wihtout Brainstorm" and "blue is bad for the experience players have" bears no personal taste or stupidity for you, but if I outlined several times the possible results of lost consistancy and hand-manipulation for decks like Miracles, Storm, S&T, Foodchain, etc. when it's personal taste only?

Explain me with sane reason why Miracles and SneakShow should be able to maintain and continue to perform well if their glue is gone? Why should anyone bother with clunky Miracles in their deck anymore if they have lost Brainstorm to get rid of them instead of running UW Blade which has basically no "dead" draws at all? I never heared any counterargument at all, which would be a start, but instead FoolofaTook and others just plain repeat their initial bold statements. Fantastic discussion culture #Sarcasm. Claiming that these decks stay viable but are only slightly nerfed is "flawed logic" for obvious reasons imo.

Dood, NO ONE is saying Brainstorm isn't MILES ahead in terms of cardselection. No one ever has, so don't make a point out of it. The point is, and ever was, that this fact IS NOT a ban criteria itself #StrategicDiversity #BackboneOfTheFormat #LikeMoxenInVintage

[Bed Decks Palyer]

No, you still learned nothing. You're still arguing from a position of personal taste, like it or not. And your gusto is equal to any other's, it's not like you're bearer of ultimate truth.

There's no point for Zoo being viable and similarly there's no point for Miracles being viable, no "deck" is sacred. There are no decks, just legal cards. If BS is too powerful for Legacy, then it should get of the format no matter how would "Miracles" look like post-ban or whatever.

Explain me with sane reason why Miracles and SneakShow should be able to maintain and continue to perform well if their glue is gone?

Well, maybe it shouldn't. Nobody cares.

Claiming that these decks stay viable but are only slightly nerfed is "flawed logic" for obvious reasons imo.

I give zero fucks if someone's pet deck will be lawful viable, chaotic average, lightly nerfed or totally dead. If the card is stifling the format, then it should be gone. There's other Magic than Brainstorm, the whole of the game's history should be a testimony of that. It's worth a reminder that until recently, the format was never reduced or polarized into Brainstorm decks vs. hatedecks. And it was much more enjoyable.