All B/R update speculation.

[Ellomdian]

So does everybody else. That's the problem. 56 card format for the win.

Serious question (that I expect to be ridiculed for...)

Do you enjoy playing or watching Vintage?

The nature of 'Eternal' formats is that they will typically, over time, become more and more narrow because the cards that are 'the best ???? ever" are harder and harder to supplant. It's been pretty shocking to see what's happened over the last decade in Vintage, because there is actually more Diversity at a given event now that I can remember, even though a huge portion of the format is effectively required to run the same 10-12 cards.

Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy' as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. I'm going to be frank - this is an idiotic metric. I've been playing Limited for 2 Decades now, whether a casual, I just bought a starter-kind, or a sanctioned format-kind, and more often than not, every time I see a card that I used to love playing in Limited, it is so far from being playable in any constructed format ever that it's laughable to think that a format is somehow defined by having a huge percentage of playables.

I get it - there are people who experience emotional anguish every time someone casts Brainstorm against them. Or more often than not, when someone does it at a table in a room they aren't even in, since they don't actually play anymore because of the trauma the 1CMC Instant has caused them. But, to be blunt, the same thing happens every single time someone casts Ancestral Recall in Vintage - someone is playing a card that is head-and-shoulders better than the rest of the cards in their deck. I enjoy that people cast Preordain, not because they necessarily want to, but because it's the closest analogue to the best card in their deck that they can legally play.

Whether anyone wants to accept it or not, Blue was traditionally the color that was given the strongest effects in the game for many, many years. The fact that so many decks play with Blue cards is an intrinsic function of the games LEGACY. And the continual gnashing of teeth about it has been a Religion for many people for years now.

So, fine. Prepare your sermons, fire up the congregation, and continue to run this thread into the rut that requires special rules on this site to handle.

As for me and my house, I really just wish they'd unban Imperial Seal.

[Julian23]

I've actually discussed this quite a lot. I don't think Seal would be anywhere near as crazy as it first seems.

[Quasim0ff]

I've actually discussed this quite a lot. I don't think Seal would be anywhere near as crazy as it first seems.

I think you're mistaken.

Seal would make storm and (fast) combo decks omnipresent. That card + Probe makes lines so easy to deduce for a decent storm player.

[btm10]

I think you're mistaken.

Seal would make storm and (fast) combo decks omnipresent. That card + Probe makes lines so easy to deduce for a decent storm player.

I'm not convinced. Personal Tutor is legal and isn't played in Storm or Show and Tell decks despite finding half of the combo in the latter and everything except LED in the former. I'd be open to seeing it unbanned.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Maybe reevaluate your life, or relationship with the game in general?

Keep he personal things for PMs. However... yes, I'm in a MtG hiatus ever since Treasure Cruise was printed, as the card reinforced my opinion that the game is turning to shit. But I still got a set of Savannahs and Heaths in case something happens.

@ Lemnear + Starscream: I'm not the one who defends cards based on his/her gusto, neither do I care about specific "decks" like e.g. "Miracles" or whatever. Also, this discusion is pointless, it's not like anybodyin DCI/Wotc cares, so you may argue however you wish to (or not), and nothing changes until the field will be 95% saturated with Brainstorm decks #enjoytheUSD500blueduals #sevenpeopleweeklies #roboticgameplay

[Nuke is Good]

I've actually discussed this quite a lot. I don't think Seal would be anywhere near as crazy as it first seems.

It's availability would prevent it from being omnipresent in decks as well. Though...I'd have to buy another 3 seals.

[Dice_Box]

#enjoytheUSD500blueduals

At lest you are finally being honest about what drives your vitriol and blind hate.

[CabalTherapy]

But I still got a set of Savannahs and Heaths in case something happens.

At least you have kept the good stuff.

[Lemnear]

Serious question (that I expect to be ridiculed for...)

Do you enjoy playing or watching Vintage?

The nature of 'Eternal' formats is that they will typically, over time, become more and more narrow because the cards that are 'the best ???? ever" are harder and harder to supplant. It's been pretty shocking to see what's happened over the last decade in Vintage, because there is actually more Diversity at a given event now that I can remember, even though a huge portion of the format is effectively required to run the same 10-12 cards.

Most of the 'Ban brainstorm!' arguments are based on the logic that 'more different cards should get played in Legacy' as though the success or health of the format can be measured by the portion of cards that are available and see play. I'm going to be frank - this is an idiotic metric.

[YamiJoey]

"Every mechanic has one busted card."

There are literally zero busted cards for their Mechanics in Dragons of Tarkir.
Khans has Cruise as an OP card, the other four mechanics had zero. Dig is good, but not broken. It costs 2 and is bad in multiples.
Convoke in M15 had zero.
There are no playable Devotion, Heroic, Inspired, or Bestow cards.
Detain, Extort, Battalion, Populate, Cipher, Overload, Evolve, Unleash, Scavenge, and Bloodrush see zero Legacy play.

Apart from Cruise and Dig, we've seen no card with a mechanic that really breaks into Legacy since Miracles. That's nearly 3-years, and Terminus isn't exactly opressive, just really good, like Delver, or Stoneforge.

[Barook]

It's been pretty shocking to see what's happened over the last decade in Vintage, because there is actually more Diversity at a given event now that I can remember, even though a huge portion of the format is effectively required to run the same 10-12 cards.

The last thing Legacy should become is Vintage 2.0, a format that has been either dead or not very popular for God knows how long.

Vintage is far from being a format for everybody. Not everybody is a fan of Workshop, Dredge and different "Shades of Blue" (where combo, control and aggro share a good chunk of the same core). That's why it's doing just "okay" on MODO, despite key Vintage cards being comparably dirt cheap online.

But to come back on topic: Would it be still as "diverse" if Brainstorm and Ponder weren't restricted? I remember some doomsayers calling for the end of the format back then after their restrictions. I see parallels with the same repeating discussion in this thread where some people call for the end of the format with tons of people ragequitting if their "Pillar of the Format" Brainstorm is gone while others argue that the format would become more diverse without it in the long run.

[Dice_Box]

Vintage just has not been very accessible. It's not dead and it's popular now.

[Julian23]

Terminus isn't exactly opressive, just really good

........

It's the single most opressive card in Legacy.

[Finn]

........

It's the single most opressive card in Legacy.

...for Elves. Not for everyone.

And just sayin...Miracles would not exist without Brainstorm. Terminus sits upon an artificial pedestal.

[FoolofaTook]

The last thing Legacy should become is Vintage 2.0, a format that has been either dead or not very popular for God knows how long.

Vintage is far from being a format for everybody. Not everybody is a fan of Workshop, Dredge and different "Shades of Blue" (where combo, control and aggro share a good chunk of the same core). That's why it's doing just "okay" on MODO, despite key Vintage cards being comparably dirt cheap online.

But to come back on topic: Would it be still as "diverse" if Brainstorm and Ponder weren't restricted? I remember some doomsayers calling for the end of the format back then after their restrictions. I see parallels with the same repeating discussion in this thread where some people call for the end of the format with tons of people ragequitting if their "Pillar of the Format" Brainstorm is gone while others argue that the format would become more diverse without it in the long run.

The format would clearly become much more diverse without Brainstorm and Ponder.

The tragedy of the blue shell is that it has invalidated a huge number of cards that are powerful enough in a vacuum to play in Legacy but not powerful or synergistic enough to get one of the limited slots available in the blue shell. It has taken a few cards that invalidate dozens of lists and promoted them to dominance, Terminus being the prime example but Delver, TNN and even Tarmogoyf belonging in that group.

The beauty of Magic: The Gathering is that it is a configurable game in which players fight over an often chaotic board state, attempting to impose their plan for the game on the opponent. Legacy is rapidly merging into a stagnant game in which a few strategies progressively dominate and most are invalidated by the strongest cards in the few that dominate. The blue shell is what is causing that to happen. It makes the most powerful cards in Magic into sure things, reducing the need for synergy in the process since you might need a second option to carry your plan through but you will rarely need a third. Synergistic shells that rely on many cards are inherently inferior to a shell that can always find one of the best cards in the format when it needs it. You can't win consistently putting your second or third best option out against the opponents first or second. You can't win when the opponent can easily find and use a single spell that invalidates most of your strategy.

The power level of the cards has never been higher than it is right now. That's not the main problem. The ability to find the cards you need when you need them has also never been higher. That's the problem.

[nedleeds]

...for Elves. Not for everyone.

And just sayin...Miracles would not exist without Brainstorm. Terminus sits upon an artificial pedestal.

+1

Scroll Rack Miracles might not be the worst but nobody has incentive to play a card like rack with BS legal.

[Lemnear]

And just sayin...Miracles would not exist without Brainstorm. Terminus sits upon an artificial pedestal.

I can only agree.

The last thing Legacy should become is Vintage 2.0, a format that has been either dead or not very popular for God knows how long.

Vintage suffers from the cost and accesibility of cards since nearly a decade and the rage-restrictions at the end of the secind Gush-Era hit tournament attendence with a sledgehammer as it narrowed the format more than it opened it up and turned the format into Workshop vs. Dredge vs. Anti-Workshop for years. WotC gave a fuck about the Restricted-List and format

But to come back on topic: Would it be still as "diverse" if Brainstorm and Ponder weren't restricted? I remember some doomsayers calling for the end of the format back then after their restrictions. I see parallels with the same repeating discussion in this thread where some people call for the end of the format with tons of people ragequitting if their "Pillar of the Format" Brainstorm is gone while others argue that the format would become more diverse without it in the long run.

Problem is: We (pretty much) KNOW that Miracles and decks like SneakShow would vanish w/o Brainstorm/Ponder; We KNOW that Vintage took a real hit in popularity and ACTUAL tournament attendence; We do NOT KNOW if new decks emerge in Legacy if Brainstorm/Ponder were banned. I don't see anyone arguing with them "ragequitting" at all.

[Michael Keller]

I just can't believe there's 562 pages in this thread that are truly anchored back to a single card. I randomly selected a generous sample size of pages and found something having to do with Brainstorm on every single one.

With that in mind:

[Lemnear]

The format would clearly become much more diverse without Brainstorm and Ponder.

No fucking evidence for that. Look at Vintage to see the opposite happened.

The tragedy of the blue shell is that it has invalidated a huge number of cards that are powerful enough in a vacuum to play in Legacy but not powerful or synergistic enough to get one of the limited slots available in the blue shell. It has taken a few cards that invalidate dozens of lists and promoted them to dominance, Terminus being the prime example but Delver, TNN and even Tarmogoyf belonging in that group.

"The best cards invalidate suboptimal ones!" Wow ... You don't say?! Should we go down the road of Modern and keep banning the "best cards" every 6 months?

The beauty of Magic: The Gathering is that it is a configurable game in which players fight over an often chaotic board state, attempting to impose their plan for the game on the opponent. Legacy is rapidly merging into a stagnant game in which a few strategies progressively dominate and most are invalidated by the strongest cards in the few that dominate.

"The best cards invalidate suboptimal ones!" ... Take: Two! Action!

You can't win consistently putting your second or third best option out against the opponents first or second.

Captain Obvious delivers: "The best cards invalidate suboptimal ones!"

The power level of the cards has never been higher than it is right now. That's not the main problem. The ability to find the cards you need when you need them has also never been higher. That's the problem.

Congratz! You described the essence of an Eternal Format in which time brings new cards but never takes old cards away and the increasing options also increase powerlevel by itself. If that's a problem for you despite being the very nature of an Eternal Format, switch to Standard.

[Barook]

Problem is: We (pretty much) KNOW that Miracles and decks like SneakShow would vanish w/o Brainstorm/Ponder;

You make it sound like that would be a bad thing, considering Terminus and S&T are two of the main oppressive forces in the format stifling innovation.