All B/R update speculation.

[GGoober]

There is nothing wrong with mental misstep, it's the new glue in legacy.

Also, I thought Mental Misstep hurts Dredge. Seriously you guy need to cool down.

It does hurt Dredge. It is the new glue in Legacy, hence the reason why it's been pretty dominantly format-defining (or I would prefer to call format-warping/stagnating). Misstep IMO is more powerful in the format than FoW. There are many times where FoW can really be justified to be cut (the only spells that keep FoW relevant are the 3-4cmc game-winning bombs, but these decks themselves have become more viable BECAUSE of Misstep i.e. Spell Pierce is not as powerful with Misstep around, and Spell Pierce was the additional non cost-disadvantage FoW to 3-4cmc game-winning bombs).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My experience is that people who think only about creature utility end up dying wondering why their blocking dorks kept getting eaten alive.

I mean with GSZ you can obviously cut down if you want, but running only one Goyf is a mistake I think, and running none is rubbish.

[GGoober]

+1 IBA.

My friend started playing Goyfs again, after the SCG trends of playing 1-3 Goyfs in Junk/NORUG etc, and he said,

"You know, when you Fetch Ponder and Daze their creature, a 4/5 for 1G is really really good in Legacy. People can't trade with it and lose to it"

There are just times when you swing in with a huge vanilla creature, and it wins games, because all the utility dorks give some form of card advantage, but people tend to forget the clock advantage Goyf has over the popular cards these days.

[majikal]

+1 IBA.

My friend started playing Goyfs again, after the SCG trends of playing 1-3 Goyfs in Junk/NORUG etc, and he said,

"You know, when you Fetch Ponder and Daze their creature, a 4/5 for 1G is really really good in Legacy. People can't trade with it and lose to it"

I'm not saying it's not a good card. Goyf is awesome in some decks. In Maverick and Bant, though, it's the worst card in the list. You don't have sorceries to pump it, and it is often a 3/4, and with 8 1-drop mana bugs (counting GSZ for D. Arbor), 8 fetches, Wasteland, and possibly a Horizon Canopy, you can just drop a Knight of the Reliquary that is bigger and also does more stuff. Also Scavenging Ooze trumps Goyf in size pretty much every time and is overall a better card to have in those decks due to its utility.

[kiblast]

How did goblins get better if the deck dropped off the face of the earth after the printing of mental misstep? Mental misstep gave every deck the best possible answer to goblins best plays, a turn 1 vial or lackey and they don't even have to pay mana.

Running more non goblin cards in goblins hurts goblin lackey, goblin ringleader and gemplam incinerator.

Please explain how all of this is good for goblins?

I'll analyze mono R goblins since is the list I am most familiar with.

Those lists always run at least 7 lands (and almost always 8) dedicated only to the mana denial plan ( Wasteland, Rishadan Port). Considering the current state of legacy, there are some cards-all of which are not underplayed- that may disturb your mana denial plan. Those cards are (for example): Noble Hierarch, Aether Vial, Bop. Countering a Hierarch is a huge advantage for the Goblin players, since slows down RUG player's Order by a turn, which is incidentally the critical turn in which Goblin players normally win (4th turn). The same is for Vial when facing Vial decks. Countering Merfolk's turn 1 vial (or even Cursecatcher) is a golden advantage if you want to race them.

It's all about tempo. Gaining tempo with a deck designed to control your mana resources while possibly racing everything: WIN.

Or, you can just cast Vial or Lackey, and counter their Misstep. You say:

Mental misstep gave every deck the best possible answer to goblins best plays

Do you know what counters Misstep? yeah, Misstep itself.

The second best answers to a turn one Lackey on the play all cost 1 ( Nacatl, random cc1 critters, StP, Bolt, Chain Lightning). Guess what? Misstep is good here too. Is good if you know that opponent plays Thoughtseize, making one land+Lackey/Vial+ lot of gas hands keepable.


Moreover:

Running more non goblin cards in goblins hurts goblin lackey, goblin ringleader and gemplam incinerator.

Goblin players usually (not always) include 2-3 Bolts in the maindeck. With great success. You can cut them and play an overall better spell.

It's obviously up to your playstyle if you want to include it or not, but it's undeniable that Misstep gives an incredible boost to Goblin.
If you want a more accurate insight, I highly suggest you to carefully read Jrw1985's take on MM in Goblins build.

[GGoober]

The only flaw to your analogy on Goblins + Misstep being able to deal with Misstep is that the Goblin player now needs to draw 3 cards to maintain the same plays: Land + Lackey/Vial + Misstep. Whereas the blue player just needs to draw 1 card (misstep, not even a land but they should probably mull a no-lander lol) to neuter Goblin's unfair play/clock.

The only reason why Goblins can still continue to do well is because even without Lackey/Vial, the deck still has a good shot, especially against controllish decks with an abysmal clock. Goblins is one of the best late-game decks. However, with the format gearing more popularly towards a critical turn 4 Natural Order, or a turn 6 clock with Batterskull and SFM, not resolving Lackey/Vials start looking a little disappointing. The biggest reason for goblin's decline is really because in the past few years, every deck in Legacy has received a huge boon in power level, whereas Goblins has received close to nothing outside of Warren's Wierding (mono-red lists don't even play it!). Every deck has become more powerful, but Goblin's power-level has remained fairly static. This is the biggest reason why Goblins is on the decline, and Misstep pretty much put a nail in the coffin because the most broken plays that Goblins can make is now easily disrupted with 1 card, 1 condition.

This is why Misstep will still fundamentally fail in decks like Goblins and Dreadstalker etc (I've played Dreadstalker for a long time and despite the fact that Misstep in the temponought shell is amazing on paper, in real practice, it is incredibly hard to assemble a 4-card combo: land, stifle, misstep, dreadnought).

[Lancer]

It does hurt Dredge.

Somebody please tell Michael Morrissey...

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...s_Atlanta.html

It is the new glue in Legacy, hence the reason why it's been pretty dominantly format-defining (or I would prefer to call format-warping/stagnating). Misstep IMO is more powerful in the format than FoW. There are many times where FoW can really be justified to be cut (the only spells that keep FoW relevant are the 3-4cmc game-winning bombs, but these decks themselves have become more viable BECAUSE of Misstep i.e. Spell Pierce is not as powerful with Misstep around, and Spell Pierce was the additional non cost-disadvantage FoW to 3-4cmc game-winning bombs).

The best thing about Mental Misstep it forces the players to play smarter (like bait spells and/or look for a 2cc alternated card).

[kiblast]

I'm not saying it's not a good card. Goyf is awesome in some decks. In Maverick and Bant, though, it's the worst card in the list. You don't have sorceries to pump it, and it is often a 3/4, and with 8 1-drop mana bugs (counting GSZ for D. Arbor), 8 fetches, Wasteland, and possibly a Horizon Canopy, you can just drop a Knight of the Reliquary that is bigger and also does more stuff. Also Scavenging Ooze trumps Goyf in size pretty much every time and is overall a better card to have in those decks due to its utility.

Majikal is right regarding Maverick. Ooze outclassed the mono-Goyf in those decks.

[GGoober]

Somebody please tell Michael Morrissey...
The best thing about Mental Misstep it forces the players to play smarter (like bait spells and/or look for a 2cc alternated card).

The best thing about MTG is that it usually rewards players to play smarter in the first place, irregardless if Misstep is in the format (if you don't get what I'm saying, all I'm saying is that 2 good players will always make the best/optimal play, it doesn't take a card to make people who want to win or be competitive play any smarter)

@kiblast/Majikal: Yes, I agree that in Maverick, Goyf is outclassed for reasons you mentioned, but I'm mostly talking about the trend where everyone is dismissing Goyf for many other decks: NORUG, Team America (especially the popularity of Esper America. Team/Esper America are IMO quite different, Team America is a more aggressive early-game tempo deck while Esper America leverages a stronger mid-game and tends not to be aggressive in the early game).

[kiblast]

The only flaw to your analogy on Goblins + Misstep being able to deal with Misstep is that the Goblin player now needs to draw 3 cards to maintain the same plays: Land + Lackey/Vial + Misstep. Whereas the blue player just needs to draw 1 card (misstep, not even a land but they should probably mull a no-lander lol) to neuter Goblin's unfair play/clock.

The only reason why Goblins can still continue to do well is because even without Lackey/Vial, the deck still has a good shot, especially against controllish decks with an abysmal clock. Goblins is one of the best late-game decks. However, with the format gearing more popularly towards a critical turn 4 Natural Order, or a turn 6 clock with Batterskull and SFM, not resolving Lackey/Vials start looking a little disappointing. The biggest reason for goblin's decline is really because in the past few years, every deck in Legacy has received a huge boon in power level, whereas Goblins has received close to nothing outside of Warren's Wierding (mono-red lists don't even play it!). Every deck has become more powerful, but Goblin's power-level has remained fairly static. This is the biggest reason why Goblins is on the decline, and Misstep pretty much put a nail in the coffin because the most broken plays that Goblins can make is now easily disrupted with 1 card, 1 condition.

This is why Misstep will still fundamentally fail in decks like Goblins and Dreadstalker etc (I've played Dreadstalker for a long time and despite the fact that Misstep in the temponought shell is amazing on paper, in real practice, it is incredibly hard to assemble a 4-card combo: land, stifle, misstep, dreadnought).

I disagree. Goblins are still good, even now in a field of Missteps. You don't need Misstep in your opening 7. But if you happen to draw it, it does so many things and is very versatile in the hands of the Goblin player. Misstep is not here only to deal with Misstep. It should be played in goblin lists because it is versatile. More than a Bolt (normally played in Gob flex slots).
The biggest reason because Goblins is in decay now is because is a difficult deck to play, and since its staples (Ports, Lackeys, Wastelands,Vials etc) are becoming more and more expensive, format newbies just prefer to spend a little more money and play Merfolk, which obviously is hundreds times easier to play than Goblins.

[Zilla]

I didn't say Tarmogoyf needed to be banned, I said I would ban it. I don't share the view that banning is something that should only be done as a last resort.

2 or 3 years ago I agreed with you, but I just don't see it as an issue anymore. Yes it's extremely strong, too easily splashed, and generally thoughtless to play, but honestly Legacy is full of cards like that. Since its printing, a ton of cards have been printed which mitigate its strength in the meta or outright trump it.

Path is another cheap answer to it, Knight of the Reliquary bullies it pretty hard and a Stoneforge Mystic holding Sword of Feast and Famine looks pretty good next to it. Vendilion Clique doesn't answer it, but it evades it and is arguably its equal in efficiency for cost. Even Wild Nacatl is a more efficient beater in the early game.

I guess to me it's gone from being the absolutely best threat available for the price without anything approaching its equal to being a really good part of a group of other really good creatures.

More than anything, I'm not sure what decks are being marginalized because of its presence. Goblins lost a lot of steam when it was printed, but it was still strong. It's not getting played much now because of Misstep, obviously. People used to argue that it hurt blue based control, until blue based control started running it. It's not really impacting combo much. Certainly not more than Misstep. What else do you think it's hurting?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think it's hurting deck diversity generally. Very few creatures are played right now that don't either play a strongly utility role or have the ability to outclass Goyf. Even fewer if you cut out one drops. Goyf is the effective baseline for beaters which pushes a whole host of creatures like Werebear, Putrid Leech, Troll Ascetic, FTK, Nantuko Shade, etc. out of playability; basically, it fills a massive role in Legacy that would be filled, in its absence, by many, maybe dozens of other creatures depending on color/strategy if there weren't a ubiquitous "best beater."

It's also a contributing factor to the weakness of red in general, I think, which prior to GP Flash and the subsequent arrival of Future Sight was about as played or more played than blue in the format.

[Gheizen64]

I think it's hurting deck diversity generally. Very few creatures are played right now that don't either play a strongly utility role or have the ability to outclass Goyf. Even fewer if you cut out one drops. Goyf is the effective baseline for beaters which pushes a whole host of creatures like Werebear, Putrid Leech, Troll Ascetic, FTK, Nantuko Shade, etc. out of playability; basically, it fills a massive role in Legacy that would be filled, in its absence, by many, maybe dozens of other creatures depending on color/strategy if there weren't a ubiquitous "best beater."

It's also a contributing factor to the weakness of red in general, I think, which prior to GP Flash and the subsequent arrival of Future Sight was about as played or more played than blue in the format.

Even if Goyf were banned, i'm pretty sure that before two years go down, something else would take its place as the "mindless beater". KotR might not be it, but it's already pretty ubiquitous.

I just think the argument of "it close design space" is bad for creatures (but can be applied to non-creatures since it's difficult to top the things that have been printed in the past). Before Goyf it was Psychatog, before Psychatog it was the Superman and even before that ... Ernham Djinn?

Yeah Goyf sucks for red, but it's not just Goyf fault. Red best aggressive 1-drop is still comparable to Jackal Pup and only situationally better (Guide), while green has gone from Rogue Elephant to Nacatl. But more important Red doesn't have a relevant 2-drop (beside from goblin piledriver, but that's limited to goblin). Green has gone from Mongrel to Goyf, and white has gone from Spectral Lynx and the various pro-Knights to SFM. Blue had an absurd jump in powerlevel relatively to its creatures at the two mana spot, with all the flash family of faeries and recent merfolks. Black got Tombstalker that isn't a real 2-drop but often work as one and Bob. Red got... Kargan Dragonlord? Ok.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Kargan Dragonlord is actually a decent card.

Anyway, none of the cards you listed have ever been as ubiquitous and easy as Goyf, even KotR. Like I think Knight may be the best creature in Legacy, but it can't be jammed into anything, it has two color requirements and puts other deck building constraints on besides. It's also a much bigger tempo loss if it gets killed or bounced.

[Zilla]

Goyf is the effective baseline for beaters which pushes a whole host of creatures like Werebear, Putrid Leech, Troll Ascetic, FTK, Nantuko Shade, etc. out of playability; basically, it fills a massive role in Legacy that would be filled, in its absence, by many, maybe dozens of other creatures depending on color/strategy if there weren't a ubiquitous "best beater."

Aside from FTK and Werebear, most of those creatures were barely played anyway. But I suppose that's picking nits.

I'll grant that red was certainly more played before Goyf than after, and that Goyf is definitely a contributing factor, but that would be largely mitigated by Wizards simply making the decision to print cards as much better than the status quo as blue and white and green have repeatedly gotten in the last few years.

I'm ideologically comfortable with the marginalization of a lot of the creatures you listed, as well as the others you hinted at; I suspect that even without Goyf in the pciture, the majority of them would continue to be virtually unplayed in this format given what the metagame looks like today. FTK would become significantly more valuable, but the others just don't seem that relevant anymore, Goyf or no Goyf.

[DrJones]

DrJones why don't you switch over to modern? That format is without FoW and it looks extremely healthy () since not having free timewalks () means that any deck can compete.

Also the argument of free winnings when you play a FoW deck is just absurd, as can be seen from last Legacy GP or for example last SCG open where Dredge took first place.

So you use as a proof that FoW isn't busted that people are now playing decks that don't cast SPELLS in order to compete, an AGGRO deck that goes second, draws, and passes the turn to discard because it's their only good play against blue? A deck that it's so easy to hate that it only wins when nobody expects it in the meta? And then you LAUGH at the healthiness of MODERN, after having SEEN Legacy in the last months?

The irony from that post is so great, it's no longer irony. The term doesn't make it justice. I have to call it a "goldy". Well done, sir.

[Julian23]

There has never been a time when Force of Will was less important to the format than now.

Flames removed. -zilla

[Guy I Don't Know]

Goyf isn't overpowered anymore. It is usually a 3/4 or 4/5 at most. It has definitely killed a few marginal decks along the way. Before you could beat with Nantuko Monastery in 43 Lands but with Goyf that won't happen anymore. Goblins are constricted in card choices because you do not want to pump goyf with tarfire but that is marginal.

I want to see them give more cards to red badly. I want to see a playable red flash creature for 1 to 2 mana. If red is quick as lightning lets show it! Maybe something like: RR Flash Double strike 2/1

[DrJones]

Julian23

You called me a troll, I dare you to point me out ANY FORUM POST in ANY THREAD in ANY MAGIC MESSAGE BOARD from a REAL PERSON, from at least seven days ago, that honestly says he is considering taking out cards from their deck because he is no longer worried about Force of Will.

Flames removed. Let's try and keep it civil, gentlemen. -zilla

(actually trying to have an intelligent conversation here)

The edit was kinda flamey too. Stick to the topic. -zilla

[Zilla]

I dare you to point me out ANY FORUM POST in ANY THREAD in ANY MAGIC MESSAGE BOARD from a REAL PERSON, from at least seven days ago, that honestly says he is considering taking out cards from their deck because he is no longer worried about Force of Will.

I don't get what you're saying here. Of course you're not going to find anyone saying they took cards out of their deck because they're not scared of Force of Will. The reason you're not going to see that is because, with very few exceptions, no one put cards in their deck specifically to answer Force of Will in the first place.

It's not a card which typically requires a specific card to answer it and only it, unless you're playing turn 1 combo, which might as well not exist in this format anymore thanks to Mental Misstep.

The only cards that people play to beat Force of Will are cards like Thoughtseize and Inquizition of Kozilek. Those cards also happen to be useful against everything else in the format. Seriously, how often is Xantid Swarm played in this format? There's no point in packing cards to beat Force of Will because Force of Will isn't actually a problem for 99% of the decks in Legacy.