All B/R update speculation.

[sdematt]

SDT does hold Miracles together, we can all agree on this. Disabling Top is a huge problem to their flow in that deck. BUT, that does nothing else against the rest of the format if it were to be banned. Miracles would be much worse, so then Delver and Omni just assume the position. I don't think that would be a prudent ban choice if I were the one doing it.

-Matt

[Ellomdian]

Delver is from INN. Miracles came a few months later in AVR alongside Griselbrand.

Yup, a few months later. My apologies in using the word Set when I should have said Block. In the context of a format that spans DECADES. (BTW, that's kind of the amusing thing about Treasure Cruise. It's effect was basically the same as Flash (if not as grotesque): It dictated the Meta of a GP, and then it went away, likely for good.)

What the fuck are you talking about? I said ... and you quoted it ... control decks have to pass the turn without Time Walk. Or do you house rule Tinker as a fucking instant? Entreat is an EOT play 1/2 the time. Do you have misprinted Psychatogs with Flash?

I'm confused. Was Upheaval not a Time Walk in the format where Psychotog was the relevant control finisher? And I'm pretty sure most of the time I killed someone with a Morphling, it had very little to do with a Time Walk. Hell, EOTFOFYL is one of the most recognizable control 'finishers' there is.

Your main complaint was that Entreat was an "out of nowhere win condition." If you are taken by surprise by a control finisher, something is very strange indeed. If you're going to call yourself a serious Legacy player, the top of your opponents library is about as 'out of nowhere' as your opponents Graveyard when they're playing Dredge. I really like how Carsten summed it up in his article -

Accessible cards - those in a zone that lets you take advantage of them, typical your hand or in play...

...This is where the concept of card advantage comes in; if you have more accessible, active cards then your opponent, you're most likely on the road to winning the game.

If you would like to argue that Miracles is the deck it is because of the incidental Entreats, as opposed to the major card advantage and quality engines, be my guest.

[YamiJoey]

If Scroll Rack triggered Miracles, we could play with it. It doesn't trigger Miracles, and is a high costs Sorcery Speed Spell. It's way too hard to fit in.

[Finn]

So, why does Miracles have to go?

There will always be a best deck or decks. Is being the best grounds for banning of something?

[eays]

I'm not convinced it has to go necessarily either way. ..I don't have much trouble beating miracles on modo...but then again it's so prevalent and oppressive online that my whole sideboard is essentially miracles and omni tell hate. Something feels a bit wrong with that and I can understand why people are tired of miracles being the king of the hill (at least if delver was king it would be a bit more fun to play against by most measures).

The only thing I'm pretty sure about at this point is dig through time needs to go we the way of the treasure cruise.

[BTY]

Nobody is arguing for it to be banned though.

Sorry I'm a little late to respond to this (work), but I think that banning entreat is the way to go if you want to ban something out of miracles with minimal impact on the rest of the format. If entreat was gone I think it would lead to decks like BUG, Jund, Junk, and Death and Taxes being able to prey upon the deck and give it a natural (and a lot more commonly played than 12 post) bad match up. If entreat didn't allow Miracles to come back into a game it was losing out of nowhere then it would be a lot less of a problem since the BG decks with abrupt decay can actually keep it in check.

[Aggro_zombies]

This thread is generating eleventy billion reported posts per hour now, so I'm locking it temporarily. Take a deep breath, step away from your computer, maybe take a walk and get a beer with friends. This thread will be back tomorrow when tempers have (hopefully) subsided.

[JPoJohnson]

I still think Frantic Search is a safe Unban. No one can ever say how it would be overpowered and it would aid in strengthening weaker decks like Tide varieties and maybe slightly Reanimator although not much.

[rufus]

I still think Frantic Search is a safe Unban. No one can ever say how it would be overpowered and it would aid in strengthening weaker decks like Tide varieties and maybe slightly Reanimator although not much.

IMO High Tide->(Frantic Search/Dig Through Time/Brainstorm) is quite potent.

[YamiJoey]

Reanimator, Show and Tell, and High Tide all want it. Storm could also use it effectively.

I do agree that it would be mostly 'safe', but I'm not 100% on that. Making High Tide better is not a big deal, and Reanimator getting a little late game efficiency isn't completely terrible, as that is not where the deck suffers. The problem is how good it makes Show and Tell. On T3, you lose a card from your hand to cycle two Lands away. That is basically equating to turning two Lands into a Force of Will. (With Frantic Search being the card you pitch, so long as you find any Blue Spell.) The deck is just a two-card combo, so it pushes decks like DnT further away, especially considering it can tap 3 Islands to untap 2 Islands and a Mountain against the Port.

Show and Tell is a deck that just wants two specific cards to win, everything else is ancillery. That means that discarding with Frantic Search isn't a big deal, as you can do it on 3-cards and cycle into your win for less than 0 mana. On the other hand, it means that you can't use the card at all if you're on two cards, unlike something like Brainstorm or Ponder, and it does almost nothing once you have an Omni in play (if you're ofthat persuasion).

[kombatkiwi]

Show and Tell is a deck that just wants two specific cards to win, everything else is ancillery.

Well you do need SNT + Omni + X. Sometimes you need SNT + Omni + X + Counterspell to beat your opponent's counterspell, which means sometimes you need SNT + Omni + X + FoW + Blue Card. Sometimes you need cards to pitch to your opponent's Hymns and Lilianas, etc.

Reanimator being unable to loot a fatty into the bin until turn 3 is not exactly ideal.

I feel like you really have to abuse the untap part of the card to make it worth it, because this hypothetical card is not particularly exciting:
Careful Study Avenger
Instant
You can't cast Careful Study Avenger on your first or second turn of the game.
Draw 2 cards, then discard 2 cards.

I'm pretty sure the card only goes in storm decks. (High Tide obviously but it possibly also enables some weird Doomsday piles).
It's just quite a powerful card so it could also give some other forgotten strategy a bit of a boost (UG Enchantress for example) or create an entirely new archetype.

I don't think that it would be too good though.

[Kanti]

I fail to see where FS would slot into Omni lists. They already run 4 Ponder, 4 Preordain, 3-4 GProbe. It gets to a point where you're just casting cantrips and not winning. FS would literally only slot into High Tide, and make light splashes through out the format. It's card disadvantage, and you I don't think DTT warrants running it when 1cc cantrips get into the graveyard just as easily, give combo decks a t1 play, can chain, aren't card disadvantage, usually dig deeper, and just are really head and shoulders better for combo decks not-named High Tide.

With it unbanned I don't see High Tide becoming t1, at all, but it certainly does become a hell of a lot stronger. Would love to see a meta where High Tide becomes the premier Storm deck again, as it has a little more natural game vs decks that want to drag the match out (Miracles you asshole), and they aren't bad in the combo mirror.

[Gheizen64]

I still think Frantic Search is a safe Unban. No one can ever say how it would be overpowered and it would aid in strengthening weaker decks like Tide varieties and maybe slightly Reanimator although not much.

Vise, Earthcraft and Twist are all safer.
Also personally i'd rather have Bargain in the format compared to Search, because Bargain cost 6, is an enchantment, and work with via an activated ability, all things that make it easier to interact with compared to a 3 mana free instant.

[JPoJohnson]

Vise, Earthcraft and Twist are all safer.
Also personally i'd rather have Bargain in the format compared to Search, because Bargain cost 6, is an enchantment, and work with via an activated ability, all things that make it easier to interact with compared to a 3 mana free instant.

I have to admit, I'm not seeing how any of this is safer.

Vise - Eh... I can see for and against it. Overall I dislike the card as many many aggro decks are going to run it and then the format could turn into a life race format.

Earthcraft - I don't think this was actually a serious recommendation. I'll pretend I didn't see it.

Mind Twist - Once again, I can see how it would be ok, but at the same time it could turn many deck matches into topdeck mode vs topdeck mode. That sounds super-dee-duper fun.

Bargain - Hands down an extremely powerful card. Many combo decks would run this card. Imagine Show-and-tell with Bargain. Storm just dumps it down and refills and wins. It's extremely powerful and I think it gives a lot of combo decks too much strength. It would be a four of in more than just combo decks, but it would be way potent in combo decks.


As far as discussion on Frantic Search is progressing, I could see some Show decks running it, but it isn't exactly what they would want since other cheaper dig spells are far more efficient. I wouldn't run it in my show deck off the bat, but I could see testing. It mostly would give power to less seen decks like Solidarity/High Tide/Reanimator in a way that doesn't make them 'THE' deck to beat like Bargain would do for many decks.

[Dice_Box]

Earthcraft is a serious suggestion. It does nothing more broken then a lot of other cards do.

[Julian23]

Earthcraft is a very safe unban. *Looks at signature*

[Chatto]

Earthcraft won't be unbanned. Black Vise could be unbanned, it sure would help aggro

And of course Goblin Recruiter, let's not forget Goblin Recruiter

[MGB]

So would Oath of Druids still be unsafe to unban in a format full of broken things like Show and Tell, Natural Order, Terminus, and the like?

[maharis]

Are people really suggesting that a 3cmc sorcery speed combo enabler is too strong for Legacy?

[JPoJohnson]

So would Oath of Druids still be unsafe to unban in a format full of broken things like Show and Tell, Natural Order, Terminus, and the like?

No.

You'll notice these other cards require a lot of support in order to do anything. Oath of Druids is a one man show. It has other cards that make it nicer, but it does it's thing all on it's own.

Are people really suggesting that a 3cmc sorcery speed combo enabler is too strong for Legacy?

Are you referring to Show and Tell...?