All B/R update speculation.

[Megadeus]

No.

You'll notice these other cards require a lot of support in order to do anything. Oath of Druids is a one man show. It has other cards that make it nicer, but it does it's thing all on it's own.


Are you referring to Show and Tell...?

Earthcraft

[JamieW89]

Brainstorm is obviously bannable from power level perspective, but I can't see it happening (and I wouldn't be happy either). Power level isn't everything; there is a reason Workshop and Bazaar are unrestricted in vintage but Library is restricted. Brainstorm, Fetchlands, Wasteland and Force of Will are, to me, not really discussable for bans, despite their strength.

Now, the format is very blue, partially due to Brainstorm itself. But color concerns aren't really important (and pretty hard to fix since the broken blue creatures got printed) to me. Format diversity is. In my eyes the only thing the format needs is an actual aggro deck; the other archetypes are present. With that in mind it would seem interesting to get rid of the current Miracles engine, as that was the nail in the coffin for aggro. Combined with potential time concerns, I'd say that top is a fine ban, despite liking the card myself too. I doubt combo would run rampant without miracles, as you can still combine enough angles of attack against it; discard/counters/manadenial/gravehate (BUG Delver) or counters/manadenial/hatebears (in UWR variants for example) are examples of this.

Furthermore Wizards seems to be proud of keeping the B&R list "compact", meaning that a card only comes off when one is put on so they have some safe ubans in reserve. And there are several cards on the list that can potentially come off.

For this to happen, more cards would have to be banned. Dig Through Time is a card that I wouldn't mind seeing banned, since TC got the axe (both could stay IMO, but if TC went DTT may as well go). The main problem with banning DTT is that if you also ban SDT control will have a problem. In addition I'd love Show and Tell to be banned because it's a herp-derp deck, compared to more "interesting" combo decks such as Elves and Storm, but that's obviously not really a strong argument.

What can come off? Black Vise, Mind Twist, Earthcraft and Frantic Search all seem quite safe to me. The first two are pretty lame if they end up strong, but I don't think they'll be that strong. Goblin Recruiter is an interesting card, with its logistical issues probably preventing a comeback. If SDT and DTT are both banned control will need something else; but I'm not sure if we want a card like Drain or Library. I don't think we're getting Survival or Misstep back. I do think there are some other combo related cards that could potentially be fine. Imperial Seal, for example, is not that great, being sorcery speed. The cost could well be a factor though. I also don't think certain engines (Windfall and Bargain f.e.) are as evil as some people think, but I doubt we'll be seeing them.

So we'll wish for:
+ Earthcraft
+ Frantic Search
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Show and Tell

But I expect:
+ Black Vise
- Dig Through Time

[iamajellydonut]

But I expect:
- Dig Through Time

I'm still not sure the rationalization of this is, but ok.

[JPoJohnson]

Earthcraft

Earthcraft isn't a 3 cmc sorcery speed combo enabler. It doesn't fit the criteria of their statement.

[Julian23]

It's actually 4 cmc.

[JPoJohnson]

I would submit that if you think Squirrel's Nest is THE reason why Earthcraft is on the ban list then you should think of how the card is powerful beyond that. I don't think that is the primary reason, it's just the obvious one.

[Dice_Box]

I would submit that Gaea's Cradle is more powerful than Earthcraft on mana producing measurements.

[FoolofaTook]

How could a Legacy overrun by squirrel tokens off of a two card combo be more broken than what we have right now? Elves kills on turn 3 if not disrupted. How exactly could Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest do better than that? And that's the criteria we should be looking at. If it ain't faster to the kill with creatures than Elves is it ain't broken unless it is somehow impervious to disruption.

[Julian23]

Squirrel Nest is the main (and probably only) reason Earthcraft is banned. It's surely on the more powerful side of the average power level in Legacy, but that doesn't really mean a lot.

There is no real reason not to unban Squirrel Nest.

[maharis]

It's actually 4 cmc.

Dammit, I always get those two mixed up. Earthcraft is 1G. Sorry Enchantress Guy.

Either way, the presence of Earthcraft on the ban list while Show & Tell is legal is nothing short of embarrassing. Actual Splinter Twin might be better than Earthcraft combo now.

[Barook]

Dammit, I always get those two mixed up. Earthcraft is 1G. Sorry Enchantress Guy.

Either way, the presence of Earthcraft on the ban list while Show & Tell is legal is nothing short of embarrassing. Actual Splinter Twin might be better than Earthcraft combo now.

You also need some kind of acceleration (be it Exploration, a mana dork or whatever) to realistically kill on T4. Because otherwise, it goes like this:

T1: Land
T2: Land, Earthcraft
T3: Land, Squirrel Nest on tapped land
T4: Create a bazillion squirrel tokens
T5: Swing for lethal

An additional mana source speeds up the process one turn, but a T4 kill still isn't that great for a combo kill. Especially with Abrupt Decay in the format. Pithing Needle and Revoker on Earthcraft are also things to consider.

[FoolofaTook]

You also need some kind of acceleration (be it Exploration, a mana dork or whatever) to realistically kill on T4. Because otherwise, it goes like this:

T1: Land
T2: Land, Earthcraft
T3: Land, Squirrel Nest on tapped land
T4: Create a bazillion squirrel tokens
T5: Swing for lethal

An additional mana source speeds up the process one turn, but a T4 kill still isn't that great for a combo kill. Especially with Abrupt Decay in the format. Pithing Needle and Revoker on Earthcraft are also things to consider.

I'm guessing the way it goes these days is:

T1: Forest, Utopia Sprawl
T2: Land, Earthcraft, extra mana available to play around Daze
T3: Land, Squirrel Nest, Earthcraft hit by Abrupt Decay with Squirrel Nest on the stack

But that's just my jaded view of things.

[Dice_Box]

That's why you play some number of Sterling Grove in your Enchantment filled deck.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

It would possibly be played in enchantress, how much better that is then RIP + Helm I'm not sure (you do get to play replenish though)

I predict it will be unbanned just in time for the 2020 U.S. Presidential elections

[btm10]

It would possibly be played in enchantress, how much better that is then RIP + Helm I'm not sure (you do get to play replenish though)

I predict it will be unbanned just in time for the 2020 U.S. Presidential elections

It would be played in Enchantress. I have two signed Korean Earthcrafts in my Enchantress deck right now, waiting for the day that it's unbanned. Turning Argothian into a mana dork with haste speeds the deck up by at least two turns. It might even be a tier 1.5 deck with Earthcraft unbanned.

Squirrel Net is indeed the only reason Earthcraft is banned. In fact, Earthcraft's restriction in Vintage is one of the restrictions (along with Entomb, if I remember correctly) that led to separating Type 1 and 1.5 into Vintage and Legacy.

[FoolofaTook]

That's why you play some number of Sterling Grove in your Enchantment filled deck.

Then it's a 3 card combo with an extra turn involved. Legacy's ultimate turn is 3 right now. That would fit right in.

[JPoJohnson]

Then it's a 3 card combo with an extra turn involved. Legacy's ultimate turn is 3 right now. That would fit right in.

It's a 2 card combo with potential protection built in. (;

[Gheizen64]

Vise would see 0 play in Legacy. I'll gladly paypal 10$ to anyone quoting me if Vise get unbanned and get more than 4 copies in the next 4 SGCs T8 after his unbanning.

Earthcraft is another combo piece in enchantress that could potentially make the deck more annoying but wouldn't push it to T1 status still. So i don't see why anyone would be against unbanning it when we have SnT and Brainstorm in the format.

Twist is borderline playable , but slightly more playable than Vise. Same condition for Vise, but make that 8 copies in the 4 SGC T8 next to its unbanning.

Bargain cheated by SnT is comparable to Grizzly off SnT. Rituals into Bargain is much more viable than Grizzly off rituals, and probably better than AdN off rituals cause you can run 4 Bargains and 4 FoWs in your deck, even if it cost 1 more and it's sorcery. I'm not sure how good that would be, but i'd bet it wouldn't break the format and it's surely a more interesting combo deck compared to omnitell anyway.

I agree with the guys that we'll probably see DTT banned and Vise unbanned and some hundreds of words spent on how Vise is unfun and uninteractive but could help the format combat the blue decks, then proceed to see the card never played just like Land Trash which WotC said they'd never unban because of how "unfun and uninteractive and promote bad plays" ok, because the rest of the format is all made by fun and interactive cards plz.

[cheerios]

I'd love to test Vise in a RUG Delver or UR Delver type of deck.

Cheers

[Fuzzy]

Anyone thinks that Fastbond really needs to be banned?

Since Legacy don't play stuff like Gush, I see it as a glorified Manabond for the Lands deck, but wouldn't make it much better than it already is (But better, yes, I know).