View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 577 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 774775275675735745755765775785795805815876276771077 ... LastLast
Results 11,521 to 11,540 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #11521

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    The fact that the argument over Brainstorm is raging at this point in a format in which 70%+ of the best lists incorporate it has to be embarrassing to WotC on some level. My best guess is that Marketing, R&D and the people above them just don't have a clue what to do about the situation.
    Except that no-one in any of those departments spends any time thinking about legacy. Do you honestly think the marketing team is considering legacy on a regular basis? Hell, the R&D team just released an article where they confirm that they don't actually do any modern testing at all.

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ern-2015-05-22

    Nobody is actively thinking about legacy within wotc.

  2. #11522

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Except the evolution wasn't really sudden. The only major jump was after Delver (if we exclude the Misstep era), after that, it has been a gradual increase each year with each blue-related bullshit card they print.
    I'm not sure I'm on board with this characterization of the jump. I think Delver made a real impact but I also think we've seen a big impact in the last year. 50%+ in 2008-2009, 60%+ in 2011-2012, 70%+ in 2014-2015.

    Ponder - Lorwyn (Oct 2007)
    Vendilion Clique - Morningtide (Feb 2008)
    Jace, the Mindsculptor - Worldwake (Mar 2010)
    Preordain - M11 (Jul 2010)
    Delver of Secrets - Innistrad (Sep 2011)
    Omniscience - M13 (Jul 2012)
    True-Name Nemesis - C13 (Nov 2013)
    Treasure Cruise - Khans of Tarkir (Sep 2014)
    Dig Through Time - Khans of Tarkir (Sep 2014)

    Then you have the cards that are effectively blue given they work best in the blue shell:

    Tarmogoyf - Future Sight (May 2007)
    Ad Nauseum - Shards of Alara (Oct 2008)
    Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - (Apr 2010)

    So I'd group the rise of the blue shell into three rough waves:

    2008-2009 Tarmogoyf, Ponder, Vendilion Clique, Ad Nauseum
    2010-2012 Jace, Preordain, Emrakul, Delver of Secrets
    2013-2015 Omniscience, TNN, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time

    Blue threats have outpaced the format sequentially and they've been joined by better cantrips and card selection as well. That's why we're where we are.

  3. #11523
    Member
    Barook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Germany, Germering, Munich
    Posts

    7,489

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE View Post
    Except that no-one in any of those departments spends any time thinking about legacy. Do you honestly think the marketing team is considering legacy on a regular basis? Hell, the R&D team just released an article where they confirm that they don't actually do any modern testing at all.

    http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ern-2015-05-22

    Nobody is actively thinking about legacy within wotc.
    The cantrip part was pretty interesting, since Legacy is exactly plagued by that:

    Part of the reason that Ponder and Preordain are banned and Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions aren't, is that the latter two are just weaker and don't do as good of a job of letting people set up their draws quickly. The problem with putting too much card filtering in a format is that it drives too many of the games to play out exactly the same. There is some novelty in this, but I think it is less fun for a format that we want to be highly re-playable.

    That's not to say we don't like consistency, it's one of the reasons we put so many dual lands in our sets, but there should be a reasonable tradeoff for consistency.

  4. #11524
    Salt of the earth

    Join Date

    May 2009
    Location

    Canada
    Posts

    4,685

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Pretty easy - stop printing amazing blue cards and fucking everyone else.

    -Matt

  5. #11525
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    The problem was, however, that it was better in blue decks than in nonblue decks, for various reasons (pitchable to FoW, castable without life investment, being able Brainstorm it away if dead).

    This kind of hate card can't possibly work in the grand scheme of things. Symmetrical drawbacks are the only way blue decks keep their greedy clutches from cards that are supposed to fight blue.
    Unsurprisingly, I have to agree with all instances of this post. Printing non-drawback bullshit or easily splashable powercreep isn't going to do anything to break the cantrip safe haven. A deck like Deathblade shouldn't even be able to exist, but TNN and SFM doesn't even bother the manabase at all. What if SFM was WW and TNN 1WW? The format would have been a lot more balanced during 2014 for example.
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  6. #11526

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    The cantrip part was pretty interesting, since Legacy is exactly plagued by that:
    Part of the reason that Ponder and Preordain are banned and Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions aren't, is that the latter two are just weaker and don't do as good of a job of letting people set up their draws quickly. The problem with putting too much card filtering in a format is that it drives too many of the games to play out exactly the same. There is some novelty in this, but I think it is less fun for a format that we want to be highly re-playable.

    That's not to say we don't like consistency, it's one of the reasons we put so many dual lands in our sets, but there should be a reasonable tradeoff for consistency.
    You left out this interesting part from the article about 'reasonable' consistency:

    If you want a deck that never has color problems, then you can play mono-red. If you want to play a three-color aggressive deck, then you get to play way more powerful spells, at the cost of your life and your lands entering the battlefield tapped and messing up your curve.
    By extension, if this applied to Legacy as well, which is obviously doesn't, but if it did, then we were looking at a dual-land ban just around the corner.

  7. #11527
    Member
    Barook's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2007
    Location

    Germany, Germering, Munich
    Posts

    7,489

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by M+1 View Post
    By extension, if this applied to Legacy as well, which is obviously doesn't, but if it did, then we were looking at a dual-land ban just around the corner.
    Technically, you have to pay life if you want to fetch for duals.

    Tapped dual variants is their bullshit excuse to sell new cards and to slow down the format to make their overcosted crap more viable. Hence 5 mana Wraths & company.

  8. #11528
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    I'm not sure I'm on board with this characterization of the jump. I think Delver made a real impact but I also think we've seen a big impact in the last year. 50%+ in 2008-2009, 60%+ in 2011-2012, 70%+ in 2014-2015.

    Ponder - Lorwyn (Oct 2007)
    Vendilion Clique - Morningtide (Feb 2008)
    Jace, the Mindsculptor - Worldwake (Mar 2010)
    Preordain - M11 (Jul 2010)
    Delver of Secrets - Innistrad (Sep 2011)
    Omniscience - M13 (Jul 2012)
    True-Name Nemesis - C13 (Nov 2013)
    Treasure Cruise - Khans of Tarkir (Sep 2014)
    Dig Through Time - Khans of Tarkir (Sep 2014)

    Then you have the cards that are effectively blue given they work best in the blue shell:

    Tarmogoyf - Future Sight (May 2007)
    Ad Nauseum - Shards of Alara (Oct 2008)
    Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - (Apr 2010)

    So I'd group the rise of the blue shell into three rough waves:

    2008-2009 Tarmogoyf, Ponder, Vendilion Clique, Ad Nauseum
    2010-2012 Jace, Preordain, Emrakul, Delver of Secrets
    2013-2015 Omniscience, TNN, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time

    Blue threats have outpaced the format sequentially and they've been joined by better cantrips and card selection as well. That's why we're where we are.
    It's close to lying if you exclude all the non-blue printings since 2008 which shaped what Legacy was since 2008 and is today. No talk about Decay, DRS, , Nettle Sentinel, Heritage Druid, Thoughtseize, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, Wild Nacatl, Life from the Loam, Thalia, SFM, Craterhoof, GSZ, Dryad Arbor, Vengevine, etc. or even the fact that Emrakul was first adapted by Elves.

    Don't act as if blue cardselection was the only aspect of the game which got better in the last 6 years. We still see D&T, Elves, Jund, Lands, etc as viable option in the metagame which also profited by the powercreep
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  9. #11529

    Re: All B/R update speculation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    It's close to lying if you exclude all the non-blue printings since 2008 which shaped what Legacy was since 2008 and is today. No talk about Decay, DRS, , Nettle Sentinel, Heritage Druid, Thoughtseize, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, Wild Nacatl, Life from the Loam, Thalia, SFM, Craterhoof, GSZ, Dryad Arbor, Vengevine, etc. or even the fact that Emrakul was first adapted by Elves.

    Don't act as if blue cardselection was the only aspect of the game which got better in the last 6 years. We still see D&T, Elves, Jund, Lands, etc as viable option in the metagame which also profited by the powercreep
    I would say its more along the lines of Wizards giving blue the best low cost spells, and then printing cards that are extremely synergistic with said spells (delver, snapcaster, pyromancer, cruise, dig ect) that are blue or splashable. I think it is just the case that all other colors dont have access to cheap spells that are anywhere near as good as the blue package. Each color has a few, which is why there are so many variants of delver type decks that all run the same shell with those few decent spells in other colors.

  10. #11530
    Member

    Join Date

    Jun 2014
    Location

    The Arctic
    Posts

    323

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    Then you have the cards that are effectively blue given they work best in the blue shell:

    Tarmogoyf - Future Sight (May 2007)
    Ad Nauseum - Shards of Alara (Oct 2008)
    ...
    Goyf works well in ANY shell that runs green and more then just creatures, not just blue shells. People really need to get over this misconception that Goyf is a blue creature because it is splash-able. Heck in modern most of the decks it sees play in have no blue cards at all.
    Also calling Ad Nauseum a blue card is laughable since the decks that run is are normally more black then blue, ANT runs BS, Ponder, Probe and Pre-ordain, normally maxing at 14-15 blue cards IIRC but almost never more then 16. and normally what 20-21 black spells. Sorry but if a deck is more black then blue, then calling it a blue deck is wrong, and that is the only way to justify calling Ad Nauseum a blue card. Or are you someone who looks at a deck, sees Brainstorm and other cantrips, then stops right there saying that is is a blue deck running the blue shell regardless of the rest of the decks cards.

  11. #11531

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sjmcc13 View Post
    Goyf works well in ANY shell that runs green and more then just creatures, not just blue shells. People really need to get over this misconception that Goyf is a blue creature because it is splash-able. Heck in modern most of the decks it sees play in have no blue cards at all.
    Also calling Ad Nauseum a blue card is laughable since the decks that run is are normally more black then blue, ANT runs BS, Ponder, Probe and Pre-ordain, normally maxing at 14-15 blue cards IIRC but almost never more then 16. and normally what 20-21 black spells. Sorry but if a deck is more black then blue, then calling it a blue deck is wrong, and that is the only way to justify calling Ad Nauseum a blue card. Or are you someone who looks at a deck, sees Brainstorm and other cantrips, then stops right there saying that is is a blue deck running the blue shell regardless of the rest of the decks cards.
    Goyf works best in the blue shell. That's when he's at his best as a threat. If he worked better in Jund or Junk or Naya then those lists would be in a better place than they are right now. If he didn't work in the blue shell then those lists would be better right now. He works better in RUG and BUG than anywhere else and that's where he has the highest impact.

    Ad Nauseum is not played in any lists that I am aware of that do not run at least 10 blue cantrips alongside it. It's played as a 1-of with 10+ blue spells to find either it or the black tutors that will find it.

    And yes, if I see a lot of blue cantrips it's a blue shell list. The cantrips are a much bigger effect on the metagame right now than the permission or the creatures in blue. They're the effect that tells almost all of the archetypes that depend on a heavy load of non-blue spells to GTFO.

  12. #11532

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FoolofaTook View Post
    Goyf works best in the blue shell.
    stopped reading here. is DRS a blue card? SFM? Bob?

  13. #11533

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    stopped reading here. is DRS a blue card? SFM? Bob?
    You're making my point for me though. You're right, all of those guys work better in the blue shell than in shells based around their color also.

    The point about Goyf is that before he showed up the blue shell didn't have an aggro wall easily available. Werebear, Nimble Mongoose and Mishra's factory were as close as you came for the shell. They all had flaws of one sort or another, none of them had the impact that Goyf did both in stabilizing and then in turning hard on the opponent when the opportunity presented itself.

    2 mana for a 4/5 or 5/6 beater is a great thing. It's greater in the blue shell than anywhere else and that's unfortunate.

  14. #11534

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It is amazing how many good blue cards they have printed lately. It's like having Survival legal and not only printing Vengevine, but like 4-5 other functional reprints. Can't say I'm impressed.

  15. #11535

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanti View Post
    It is amazing how many good blue cards they have printed lately. It's like having Survival legal and not only printing Vengevine, but like 4-5 other functional reprints. Can't say I'm impressed.
    It's not just blue cards. Where are Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler and Murderous Cut going to be used to best effect? In a blue shell with lots of fetches and cantrips hitting the graveyard early enough to make them valuable.

    The blue shell is still going to be much better than anything else running even if they did ban Brainstorm. It will be weaker but it's way above the power level of the format at this point and a single ban isn't going to change that.

  16. #11536
    Hey guys, let's do it! The blue yonder awaits! Yahoo!
    Chatto's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2011
    Location

    The World
    Posts

    1,011

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    This isn't really true.

    The reason Lands isn't dominating Top8s completely is simply because not enough people play it. If everyone had access to the cards in the deck *and* alot of the top players wanted to play it over a blue-based shell, I think Lands would basically be 60% or more of any given Legacy Top 16.

    (...)

    I'm perfectly OK with Lands as an archetype and a deck in this format, but I think that one of the two-three most powerful control decks in the format should not have access to a tutorable, recurrable, one-turn-kill combo as its win condition. Lands would still be a solid deck without Dark Depths and/or Thespian's Stage, it just wouldn't completely crush every fair deck it goes against.
    Dude, if Lands would really be dominating (which, I'm pretty sure will never happen), just pack the appropiate SB-hate. People are just unprepared and inexperienced against this deck. You don't have to believe me, but this deck is easy to beat with the right cards. I mean, Blood Moon or Surgical Extraction are still cards. With your reasoning decks that can go off multiple times per game have elements that are ban-worthy. Note that Lands has the interact by attacking with Marit Lage, which can be blocked... untill the end of times.
    "Be it ever so crumbled, there's no place like home."

    RGCL (GQ)


    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Welcome aboard, in her dark name we do dedicate this performance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    That actually sounds erotic.
    Youtube-playlist dedicated to RGCL

  17. #11537

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If they unbanned Mishra's Workshop, it would put a big contender against the blue cantrip shell.

  18. #11538
    Site Contributor
    Admiral_Arzar's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2010
    Location

    Denver, CO
    Posts

    1,289

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varal View Post
    If they unbanned Mishra's Workshop, it would put a big contender against the blue cantrip shell.
    Unbans of Memory Jar and/or Mana Vault would have a similar effect I think.
    Lord of the Chalice

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
    Stompy Discord: https://discord.gg/6cesvkz

  19. #11539
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varal View Post
    If they unbanned Mishra's Workshop, it would put a big contender against the blue cantrip shell.
    If you want to see a format which is Workshop vs. blue pile vs. Dredge, I honestly recommend you picking up Vintage. Playing against Turn 1 Spheres and Lodestones so you potentially never get to CAST a spell isn't for everyone
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  20. #11540
    Member

    Join Date

    Oct 2012
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    322

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Folofaatook
    The fact that the argument over Brainstorm is raging at this point in a format in which 70%+ of the best lists incorporate it has to be embarrassing to WotC on some level. My best guess is that Marketing, R&D and the people above them just don't have a clue what to do about the situation.

    They don't want to do something that causes competitive attendance to decline however they also don't know how much the current competitive base is effected by the blue shells dominance. For every player who loves casting Brainstorm there's probably a player out there who hates playing endless blue shell mirrors and/or has a pet archetype that just isn't doable against a blue shell heavy meta.

    Then you add in the likelihood that the longer the shell is allowed to dominate the more players become accustomed to it as the dominant presence in the meta. It's almost a situation where waiting has no downside for WotC unless attendance declines force their hand. It's not hard to shape a Legacy meta where the people who don't like the blue shell just go away, hopefully feeding into Modern in the process.
    I quote this post after 3 pages because i found it so true i needed to do it.

    I read people here say that we are playing in a healty and diverse meta. Sure, healthy and diverse as long as you play 4 brainstorm 4 ponders and 4 force of will. Obviously this is not a healthy meta, the fact is just that people in legacy are by now so accustomed to this that it just seems normal, and people who actually like playing with said blue cards keep considering this meta healthy.

    Obviously, wizards won't do anything (because they never do anything, because they don't care about legacy) so the format will slowly fade away and start resembling vintage. The restricted "elite" of people who like blue cards /blue decks will continue playing legacy, while everyone else will inevitably get tired of this shit and quit magic or start playing modern, that is basically what wizards wants.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1970 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1970 guests)