All B/R update speculation.

[Admiral_Arzar]

SDT isn't the only problem with the format, but it offers very little for anybody but the core group of Miracles pilots. Even hardcore control fanatics would still have plenty of blue control decks to play in the absence of SDT. I am all for diversity and fun - SDT adds very little fun and stifles diversity, and removing it would increase both diversity (in both control and aggro decks) and fun.

As someone who often plays Imperial Painter, and has played Nic Fit, Doomsday, etc. I would really like for one of the few card-quality tools that non-blue decks have access to to remain legal. If you have a problem with Miracles (I know I do), the cards to look at are Terminus and Counterbalance.

[MGB]

As someone who often plays Imperial Painter, and has played Nic Fit, Doomsday, etc. I would really like for one of the few card-quality tools that non-blue decks have access to to remain legal. If you have a problem with Miracles (I know I do), the cards to look at are Terminus and Counterbalance.

The difference is that Imperial Painter wins because of the Painter-Grindstone combo and its Moon effects. A banning of SDT would basically do little to nothing to its viability as a deck. The last three Imperial Painter lists (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16480&iddeck=123224, http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16397&iddeck=122627, http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16217&iddeck=121157) that placed decently at SCG events each played only 2 SDTs in their lists, and easily could substitute something else for those Tops and still be powerful decks.

Let's look instead at tcdeck's listing of decks that use SDT in their main deck:
http://tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?toke...ide=&strict=on

The vast majority of that list is Miracles decks. The fact of the matter is that there is only *one* deck in Legacy which uses Sensei's Divining Top as an integral part of its core strategy. The random fringe BGx deck might use it as a source of card selection, and the stray Painter list might use it as a tertiary tool. All of those decks can still be just as good without Top and a banning of Top would not affect their core strategy at all. Miracles, however, derives most of its degeneracy from using Sensei's Divining Top to set up the Counterbalance lock and to pay one white mana for unconditional board sweepers. That is the problem with Top - it only really benefits Miracles, and it harms the diversity of control and aggro in the format.

[.dk]

As someone who often plays Imperial Painter, and has played Nic Fit, Doomsday, etc. I would really like for one of the few card-quality tools that non-blue decks have access to to remain legal. If you have a problem with Miracles (I know I do), the cards to look at are Terminus and Counterbalance.

Yes. SDT has a place in many non-control decks. I realize that they are mostly fringe strategies, however it can play a big role in these decks that are also fun to play. I would hate to see them banned out of existence even further. But, that's just because I like playing stuff out of left field. :)

[Lemnear]

As someone who often plays Imperial Painter, and has played Nic Fit, Doomsday, etc. I would really like for one of the few card-quality tools that non-blue decks have access to to remain legal. If you have a problem with Miracles (I know I do), the cards to look at are Terminus and Counterbalance.

Without any interrest to fuel the discussion here on SDT: It is the reason Terminus, Entreat and Counterbalance are that strong and all the repeated arguments in regards to "Brainstorm messing with Discard as a viable tool" apply even more to SDT (see: floated Flisterstorm against ANT for example)

[FoolofaTook]

SDT is clearly a broken card in Miracles. It's one of the few cards in the format where the opponent resolving it turn 1 of game 1 will make me consider conceding the game immediately to have a realistic chance at winning 2 games in the match. Obviously a blue-white control list should not have access to a card that gives it a high percentage chance of winning if it is resolved on turn 1. Think about it.

[Darkenslight]

SDT is clearly a broken card in Miracles. It's one of the few cards in the format where the opponent resolving it turn 1 of game 1 will make me consider conceding the game immediately to have a realistic chance at winning 2 games in the match. Obviously a blue-white control list should not have access to a card that gives it a high percentage chance of winning if it is resolved on turn 1. Think about it.

I have. Your logic is flawed. IT's sort fo the difference between Tom Ross and Jim Davis playing the exact same lists; both will think things through considerably, but one will then play quite quickly. SDT is an enabler of slower players, but IMO, there's nothing wrong with the card in and of itself. The problematic part is the interaction with Miracle cards (specifically Terminus) and the soft lock with CB. Honestly, I'd go after CB before I'd go after Top if I were to ban something out of Miracles.

Just because a card is extremely strong in a single archetype doesn't mean it warrants banning; however, the case against other such cards (namely, Mind's Desire) is somewhat different, as SDT doesnt' allow a player to cheat on mana expenditure. Smart, efficient play with the card flat-out reduces the chances of drawing with the card in your deck.

[maharis]

Counterbalance and Miracles are perfectly reasonable cards. They were not designed to be abused in conjunction with Top, however.

The problem really is the Top. It enables far too much card selection at too low of a cost. Even if you banned Counterbalance and/or Miracle spells, Top would still be played and drag out matches and eventually combo with something else printed down the line.

SDT is like Survival of the Fittest - strong on its own, but broken with certain additional pieces - this time, any card that profits from manipulation of the top of the library. What broke Survival was Vengevine, and instead of banning Vengevine and then dealing with more Survival shenanigans down the line, Wizards did the right thing and just banned the engine. In this case the correct choice again is to ban the engine and not the support pieces. The engine of Miracles degeneracy is Sensei's Divining Top.

And honestly, the argument that banning top is bad for non-blue decks holds about as much water as the argument that banning Mental Misstep was bad for non-blue decks because they had a colorless counterspell. Sensei's Divining Top helps blue FAR MORE than it helps any other color, just as Mental Misstep simply helped blue far more than it helped any other color.

What do you think about Brainstorm? It fits a lot of the same criteria you're talking about.

If you ban Top to kill Miracles, you also eliminate several other decks that lean on it for "fair" card selection. In fact I think it's funny that you say there's plenty of U control decks to choose from. Well, there can be non U control decks as long as top is around and UW control has been the best deck in Magic since 1993. I would much rather ban cards that only support that archetype to the elimination of others.

This is true, but no more than 2. Contrast this with Bob showing up as 4 of in things like Maverick and deadguy, and I feel pretty comfortable saying this is not a blue card.

...

He could be right, but he could be wrong. I'll say it again -where are the facts? WHY are these cards better in a "blue shell"? Goyf, bob, SFM, DRS, etc. are all highly splashable. some blue decks utilize them, some nonblue decks do as well. I swear, people on this forum would be happy to see all blue cards get banned.

Khans block was pretty nutty for legacy. We got fetches reprint, swiftspear, cruise, dtt, siege rhino, mentor, tasigur, ugin (I think thats it). How many quality legacy playable cards do you want them to print in 1 block?

These points are related. The point is that, sure Bob is a 4 of deadguy and jund, and Goyf appears in Zoo (lol) and jund, but the best decks that play these cards are blue. SFM (D&T) and DRS (Elves) have tier-one-ish non-blue appearances but even those decks rotate in and out of tier one while blue decks stick around.

Sylvan Library might be the best green card that's legal in Legacy, and it's not played at all in any top deck other than the occasional sideboard appearance from RUG or BUG.

As for the cards the block gave us... fetches are a REPRINT, so they do not count. Swiftspear died with TC. Only the occasional insane loonie like me or sdematt plays Siege Rhino in Legacy. And Mentor/Tasigur/Ugin are just bit players in already established blue decks. I think 1-2 cards a set are necessary to keep the format fresh, but each one that makes any sort of real impact just pushes blue decks so much that it ends up having to be banned.

[porcupinetreeman]

IMO

Ban

Show and Tell + Brainstorm

cards are just too powerful, will make for healthier format

[FoolofaTook]

IMO

Ban

Show and Tell + Brainstorm

cards are just too powerful, will make for healthier format

Terminus too. The card sits on any list planning to play creatures for profit in the attack step.

[FoolofaTook]

I have. Your logic is flawed. IT's sort fo the difference between Tom Ross and Jim Davis playing the exact same lists; both will think things through considerably, but one will then play quite quickly. SDT is an enabler of slower players, but IMO, there's nothing wrong with the card in and of itself. The problematic part is the interaction with Miracle cards (specifically Terminus) and the soft lock with CB. Honestly, I'd go after CB before I'd go after Top if I were to ban something out of Miracles.

Just because a card is extremely strong in a single archetype doesn't mean it warrants banning; however, the case against other such cards (namely, Mind's Desire) is somewhat different, as SDT doesnt' allow a player to cheat on mana expenditure. Smart, efficient play with the card flat-out reduces the chances of drawing with the card in your deck.

SDT is an enabler of fast spikes these days. It just lets them play lists that will win 80% of the time if they get to turn 4.

A card that wins when resolved on turn 1 as often as SDT does is broken. Unlike most such cards all you have to do is play a land and the spell and the field has tilted sharply in your favor against most lists.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Terminus too. The card sits on any list planning to play creatures for profit in the attack step.

Wait why would you want both terminus and brainstorm banned?

[FoolofaTook]

Wait why would you want both terminus and brainstorm banned?

Because SDT, Ponder and Preordain would keep Terminus sitting on creature aggro. There'd be additional inconsistency in the form of hands with a Terminus or two in the opening hand but it'd still be a kill card against aggro creature strategies that did not include counters or taxing mechanisms to forestall an early board wipe. Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage and Supreme Verdict are enough to fairly handle creature aggro. If they're not then Path to Exile and Wrath of God can supplement. A 1 mana board wipe in which the creatures aren't even sent to the GY is too powerful for non-blue creature aggro strategies to fight through, even the ones that try to win by turn 3.

[Stevestamopz]

Because SDT, Ponder and Preordain would keep Terminus sitting on creature aggro. There'd be additional inconsistency in the form of hands with a Terminus or two in the opening hand but it'd still be a kill card against aggro creature strategies that did not include counters or taxing mechanisms to forestall an early board wipe. Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage and Supreme Verdict are enough to fairly handle creature aggro. If they're not then Path to Exile and Wrath of God can supplement. A 1 mana board wipe in which the creatures aren't even sent to the GY is too powerful for non-blue creature aggro strategies to fight through, even the ones that try to win by turn 3.

Miracles isn't the only deck keeping "aggro" out. Quite literally everything else is as well.

[dte]

I do not get at all why some people would want to ban SDT because miracle presence is obnoxious, either because of game experience, metagame considerations or draw issues.

SDT supports and can support other strategies than miracle: non-U control (pox like, nic-fit,...) and some combo decks (painter, doomsday).

If you want to decrease miracle's presence, why not ban cards which would severe miracle power, like CB or/and terminus? Banning SDT would anyway make these cards near useless, so the effect in term of miracle decrease (in power and metagame representation) will be the same, while letting some people play with the powerful SDT without locking away someone from the game (CB) or having instand speed one mana wrath effects.

[lavafrogg]

Instead of banning blue cards, I would be more interested in in the printing/unbanning of cards that cannot play blue. We have combo elves, why not give us recruiter for combo goblins?

Give charbelcher channel and see how blue handles it.

Earthcraft would give creature decks a boost, especially that elves deck that doesn't play blue.

Skullclamp also plays well with more creatures than spells and also bring aggro back.

I am not saying any of these cards would never see play in a blue deck, but it would give rise to new non blue decks.

Even go as far as create a cycle of overpowered cards with a new mechanic "primal" you can't play instants or sorceries.

Right now I feel like the best deck is always the deck that abuses the best blue cards in the most effective way.

I would just appreciate more diversity.

And no- the small outlier of death and taxes doesn't count.

[Echelon]

Skullclamp also plays well with more creatures than spells and also bring aggro back.

Concerning Skullclamp: Have you considered a UWR shell with Delver, SFM & Young Pyromancer..? Nowadays one doesn't need to build an entire deck around it to abuse it anymore. Skullclamp cannot be unbanned. In the worst case it'd make a Delver a 4/1 flyer that gives you 2 cards when it dies. Otherwise, you give every spell in a tempo deck kicker to draw 2 cards. So yeah...

[phonics]

Instead of banning blue cards, I would be more interested in in the printing/unbanning of cards that cannot play blue. We have combo elves, why not give us recruiter for combo goblins?

Give charbelcher channel and see how blue handles it.

Earthcraft would give creature decks a boost, especially that elves deck that doesn't play blue.

Skullclamp also plays well with more creatures than spells and also bring aggro back.

I am not saying any of these cards would never see play in a blue deck, but it would give rise to new non blue decks.

Even go as far as create a cycle of overpowered cards with a new mechanic "primal" you can't play instants or sorceries.

Right now I feel like the best deck is always the deck that abuses the best blue cards in the most effective way.

I would just appreciate more diversity.

And no- the small outlier of death and taxes doesn't count.

This is how balance should be approached in the game, banning just upsets people and leads to an overall weaker format in terms of power, which no one wants. Printing good cards, ways for other colors to have some kind of manipulation like Sylvan Library, SDT will allow decks to be more consistent without having to go blue. This way it feels like everyone gets to play with very strong cards that balance each other out in the end. Of course Wizards don't care or don't know how to do this and will inevitably print broken blue cards time and time again.

[YamiJoey]

Cantrips and Force of Will are the reasons why Blue is on top. Whenever you play a non-Force deck that doesn't have a T1 kill, you accept that you cannot beat some decks like Storm and Belcher. You accept that your games against other combo will also be iffy at best. In a format like Legacy that's not acceptible. You're going to walk into those MU's all the time.

Give us a non-Blue replacement for Force and we have the problem solved. Thalia does this for DnT.

[Barook]

Give us a non-Blue replacement for Force and we have the problem solved. Thalia does this for DnT.

Thalia stops combo on your T0? That's news to me.

I agree that part of the problem is the lack of super-early combo hate in other colors, though.

[Lemnear]

If you ban Top to kill Miracles, you also eliminate several other decks that lean on it for "fair" card selection. In fact I think it's funny that you say there's plenty of U control decks to choose from. Well, there can be non U control decks as long as top is around and UW control has been the best deck in Magic since 1993. I would much rather ban cards that only support that archetype to the elimination of others.

Excuse me. Which decks "lean" on SDT? Do you count Imperial Painter which run 0-2 SDTs in their deck or the weekly flavors of 12-Post Jeremiah presents? Does RG Lands or MUD, possibly the only decks I'd count as non-blue control decks, run SDT at all?

The gap between SDT and Braknstorm in terms of enabling/supporting different decks/strategies is comically huge to even bring up.

Skullclamp also plays well with more creatures than spells and also bring aggro back.

Even go as far as create a cycle of overpowered cards with a new mechanic "primal" you can't play instants or sorceries.

Skullclamp is dumb; like hilariously dumb. People complained about Treasure Cruise and you want to see Young Pyromancer + Skullclamp legal *Bangs HeadAgainstTheWall*.

I like the idea of "primal" on a creature: 3/3 - G - Primal (you cannot play non-creature spells as long as ~ is on the battlefield).

Miracles isn't the only deck keeping "aggro" out. Quite literally everything else is as well.

Correct. That's why I think the calls for a Terminus ban are totally pointless in regards to resurrecting linear aggro decks. These decks still get crunched by SFM/TNN/S&T/ToA. For all other aggro variants like aggro-control (Delver) or aggro-combo (Elves), the potential ban of Terminus isn't much of a gamechanger if Terminus would be replaced by Pyroclasm for example.

Because SDT, Ponder and Preordain would keep Terminus sitting on creature aggro. There'd be additional inconsistency in the form of hands with a Terminus or two in the opening hand but it'd still be a kill card against aggro creature strategies that did not include counters or taxing mechanisms to forestall an early board wipe. Swords to Plowshares, Snapcaster Mage and Supreme Verdict are enough to fairly handle creature aggro. If they're not then Path to Exile and Wrath of God can supplement. A 1 mana board wipe in which the creatures aren't even sent to the GY is too powerful for non-blue creature aggro strategies to fight through, even the ones that try to win by turn 3.

Honestly, dood ... whats wrong with you? We're back to "Miracles w/o Brainstorm" as your point to argue? Do I have to repeat the discussion on this ridiculous stupid idea of you every three pages? Is there a learning disorder, I should have known from the start, to not have an infinite loop of discussing the matter?

IMO

Ban

Show and Tell + Brainstorm

cards are just too powerful, will make for healthier format

You're here for 10 years and only come up with an empty phrase like "healthy" like this being a TV Shopping Show trying to sell fat-reduced sausages?


edit:

Thalia stops combo on your T0? That's news to me.

I agree that part of the problem is the lack of super-early combo hate in other colors, though.

I could swear that Pyroblast is red, Discard is black, Mana Tithe is White, Mindbreak Trap costs no mana and Sol-Land + Thorn is colorless. There are options, but there not necessarily tailor-made ones so people skip on the available option and rather whine