View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 58 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 848545556575859606162681081585581058 ... LastLast
Results 1,141 to 1,160 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #1141
    Cobra Kai Sensie
    dontbiteitholmes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2004
    Posts

    1,721

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Dr. Jones you are a broken record. We get it, you think Force of Will is broken and should be banned while 99% of the rest of the forum thinks that banning Force would be equivalent to calling Legacy a done deal and telling everyone to go play Modern or Vintage. Please talk about something else now. I can 100% with certainty tell you that FoW will never ever be banned in Legacy until the end of time and you have managed to convince no one here that banning would be a good idea. Seriously we aren't joking when we say go play Modern if you don't like FoW because it's never getting the axe.
    big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR

    Don't disrespect my dojo dude...

    Sweep the leg!

  2. #1142
    itsJulian.com - Legacy Videos
    Julian23's Avatar
    Join Date

    Apr 2007
    Location

    Munich / Germany
    Posts

    3,141

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    What Zilla said. Exactly what Zilla said. Force of Will isn't important. What deck in the format is actually worried about Force? I mean, what does "worried" even mean? Nothing. If you're not worried about the cards your opponent is playing, there's something wrong with you. I'm worried about Pernicious Deed, I'm worried about Ancient Grudge, I'm much less worried about Force of Will unless I'm playing Belcher. Even when playing UB ANT, I'm much more worried about my opponent playing Sensei's Divining Top than I'm worried about Force of Will. But who cares? You are supposed to be blown out every once in a while. This ain't chess. And let me tell you: right now the cards I just mentioned are much more troublesome to most decks than silly Force of Will.

    It's seems you're just worried about cards that interact with yours.
    The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
    1. Discuss the unbanning of Land Tax Earthcraft.
    2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
    3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
    4. Stifle Standstill.
    5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
    6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
    7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).

  3. #1143
    Don't ping the hydra
    DrJones's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2007
    Location

    Spain
    Posts

    107,480

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilla View Post
    There's no point in packing cards to beat Force of Will because Force of Will isn't actually a problem for 99% of the decks in Legacy.
    Yeah, I've never read "It loses to FoW" as a forum reply. People don't pack cards to beat brainstorm either, and that doesn't stop the please-don't-ban-Fow team from saying it should be banned. That's simply because there's no answer, so you can't put one in your deck no matter how hard you wish.

    To be fair, people actually do play a lot of cards that can stop Force of Will: Gaddock Teeg, Aether Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, Painter's Servant... The problem is that those cards are also stopped by Force of Will, so they are only good as defense against future copies of the card (a very good deal, given that you rarely win a game in which the opponent casts two or more Forces).

    Nobody plays Xantid Swarm because it's a terrible 0/1 dude that dies to everything, is stopped by everything, and gets countered all day. Because the whole point for the opponent is to make you lose your turn, the card fails in every aspect, like all the other blue hosers in green. You would get a better deal by actually playing something that does something if it doesn't get countered. All cards R&D designed as an "answer" to counterspells (Autumn's Veil, Multani's presence) are narrow AND they get countered, so in sum they are worse than just playing a card and test if it gets countered or not. People don't play meta against counters not because they're not worried about them, but because there's not a single one that is good (the closest being Silence, which doesn't stop counters, but serves as a bait in combo decks, and is still worse than playing a free counter).

    If Leyline of Lifeforce wasn't so random and useless unless you drew it in your initial seven (because, of course, it can be countered), it would actually have a small chance to fix the meta, but that's just one more in the long list of failed attempts by R&D to print something good against blue that's not blue.

    Maybe you haven't noticed this issue before because you have been playing FoW and Daze all this time as an answer to FoW?
    Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".

  4. #1144
    2nd Best Explorer in Magic
    TooCloseToTheSun's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2008
    Location

    Madison, WI
    Posts

    277

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    Yeah, I've never read "It loses to FoW" as a forum reply. People don't pack cards to beat brainstorm either, and that doesn't stop the please-don't-ban-Fow team from saying it should be banned. That's simply because there's no answer, so you can't put one in your deck no matter how hard you wish.

    To be fair, people actually do play a lot of cards that can stop Force of Will: Gaddock Teeg, Aether Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, Painter's Servant... The problem is that those cards are also stopped by Force of Will, so they are only good as defense against future copies of the card (a very good deal, given that you rarely win a game in which the opponent casts two or more Forces).

    Nobody plays Xantid Swarm because it's a terrible 0/1 dude that dies to everything, is stopped by everything, and gets countered all day. Because the whole point for the opponent is to make you lose your turn, the card fails in every aspect, like all the other blue hosers in green. You would get a better deal by actually playing something that does something if it doesn't get countered. All cards R&D designed as an "answer" to counterspells (Autumn's Veil, Multani's presence) are narrow AND they get countered, so in sum they are worse than just playing a card and test if it gets countered or not. People don't play meta against counters not because they're not worried about them, but because there's not a single one that is good (the closest being Silence, which doesn't stop counters, but serves as a bait in combo decks, and is still worse than playing a free counter).

    If Leyline of Lifeforce wasn't so random and useless unless you drew it in your initial seven (because, of course, it can be countered), it would actually have a small chance to fix the meta, but that's just one more in the long list of failed attempts by R&D to print something good against blue that's not blue.

    Maybe you haven't noticed this issue before because you have been playing FoW and Daze all this time as an answer to FoW?
    "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play." - WOPR

    But seriously if FOW was the biggest problem in legacy everyone would play vexing shusher
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur View Post
    Fetches are boring. When someone suddenly gets money, they don't invest it in something practical; they spend it on something lavish like a prostitute/PEZ dispenser.
    A founding member of Team Bluff the Lotus - Bringing the crazy from Bob's Baseball Dugout

  5. #1145
    Member
    joemauer's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2011
    Location

    Louisiana
    Posts

    683

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Step one: Bait Force of Will.

    Step two: Extirpate Force of Will.

    Congratulations you have answered Force of Will!

    Dr Jones:"But wait it costs me two cards to fight it?!?!(bait and extirpate)"

    Relax Dr Jones, you just made the other player use two cards!(FoW and blue pitch)

    Note if not running black please substitute extirpate for Surgical Extraction.

  6. #1146
    Site Contributor
    Esper3k's Avatar
    Join Date

    Dec 2008
    Location

    Houston, TX
    Posts

    2,057

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Thrun and Vexing Shusher can't be countered. They just don't see that much play (Thrun really only ever sees play as a 1 or 2 of) because generally speaking, if you want to combat countermagic, it's better to play a deck that isn't reliant upon a single spell (and thus loses to countermagic) than to play singularly narrow cards to deal with countermagic.

  7. #1147
    Member
    bfeingersh's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2011
    Location

    Boston, MA
    Posts

    326

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by joemauer View Post
    Note if not running black please substitute extirpate for Surgical Extraction.
    But what if they Force of Will your Surgical Extraction? THEN WHAT WILL YOU DO?!

    Force isn't close to a problem in this or any other format.

  8. #1148
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    Yeah, I've never read "It loses to FoW" as a forum reply. People don't pack cards to beat brainstorm either, and that doesn't stop the please-don't-ban-Fow team from saying it should be banned. That's simply because there's no answer, so you can't put one in your deck no matter how hard you wish.
    I don't mean to be mean, but it really does feel like you're trolling. I believe you when you say you're not, but it's hard to believe. If you really really must "answer" Force of Will, there's Thoughtsieze, Duress, Inquizition of Kozilek, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Vexing Shusher, Surgical Extraction, and Extirpate. And that's completely ignoring running Forces of your own, or Daze, or Spell Pierce, etc.

    That's also ignoring the fact that you can just play around it. It's super simple. You play something you know they'll want to counter, but is not the biggest threat in your hand. They trade 2 cards and 1 life for your second or third best threat. You're up on life, you're up on card advantage, and you still have your best threat in hand. This isn't rocket surgery.

  9. #1149
    I like Tacos.
    dahcmai's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2006
    Location

    Traverse City, MI
    Posts

    2,202

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's interesting what you guys found about Black Vise. I would've thought it to be pretty powerful even today. Guess I'll have to revise my opinion of it.

  10. #1150
    (' ' '\( 0 ,o)/''')
    TheInfamousBearAssassin's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2004
    Location

    Northern Virginia
    Posts

    6,627

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Black Vise is just a card that scales down to Legacy terribly. It's like Primeval Titan or something in that regard. Absolutely fantastic in a format with a fundamental turn 1.6 turns slower. Absolute crap at the Legacy power level. Maybe not absolute crap in Black Vise's case but certainly underwhelming most of the time.
    For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
    And found I was for endurance made

  11. #1151
    Cobra Kai Sensie
    dontbiteitholmes's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2004
    Posts

    1,721

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Force of Will isn't the problem, it's the solution for all the cards that would be a serious problem if it didn't exist.
    big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR

    Don't disrespect my dojo dude...

    Sweep the leg!

  12. #1152
    Member

    Join Date

    Apr 2009
    Location

    Sweden, Trelleborg
    Posts

    816

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bfeingersh View Post
    But what if they Force of Will your Surgical Extraction? THEN WHAT WILL YOU DO?!

    Force isn't close to a problem in this or any other format.
    Quite fine with that tbh. 2 for 1 for 2lives, if only had that in other cards!

  13. #1153
    Bands with Others
    menace13's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2009
    Location

    NY, NY
    Posts

    1,220

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    You guys are wasting your time and effort with Dr.PleaseBanFoWEvery2Months.

    Best shell for Black Vise would probably be Burn as Vise deals anywhere from 3 to 6 in the first 2 turns if it resolves on turn 1. It opens up Shrapnel Blast just in case it did not appear in opener and acts as bolts 17-20 if it does. Zoo can not afford to rip a Vise off the top after a few turns have passed neither can Tribal decks.

    Earthcraft might be an elegant and simple win condition in Enchantress and would make Elves better.

    Anything else off the list is risky or will not be unbanned due to time restrictions like Land Tax. I feel averse to that view since this pushes cards into a no use zone because they aren't powerful enough for Vintage. Wish there was some way to get them to rethink their stance on it, but they feel some would waste 45 minutes off a hour long game clock.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
    Respect my shine bitch!

  14. #1154
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by menace13 View Post
    Best shell for Black Vise would probably be Burn as Vise deals anywhere from 3 to 6 in the first 2 turns if it resolves on turn 1. It opens up Shrapnel Blast just in case it did not appear in opener and acts as bolts 17-20 if it does. Zoo can not afford to rip a Vise off the top after a few turns have passed neither can Tribal decks.
    Burn is even less able to afford to rip Vise off the top in the late game than Zoo. Shrapnel blast might fix it, but what other artifacts are you going to run to make it consistently playable? Great Furnace? Seems risky in a deck that's otherwise immune to Wasteland. Sensei's Divining Top maybe? I dunno.

    Right now it seems like Statis is its most proven home, but even there it's arguably weaker than Ebony Owl Netsuke because it's vulnerable to Misstep. Could be good in Burn, but without a viable Shrapnel Blast plan I think it would just add more inconsistency to an already inconsistent deck.

  15. #1155
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    Santiago, Chile
    Posts

    58

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Maybe this article, by Brian DeMars gives some insight about the Force of Will and Brainstorm discussion: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/v..._The_List.html

  16. #1156

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Aaron Forsythe hinted at the possibility of the banning of Mental Misstep in the most recent Professors video (following GP Philly).

  17. #1157
    Administrator
    Zilla's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2003
    Location

    Portland, OR
    Posts

    5,532

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sligh16 View Post
    Maybe this article, by Brian DeMars gives some insight about the Force of Will and Brainstorm discussion: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/v..._The_List.html
    I buy his argument about Brainstorm. I don't buy his argument about Force of Will. It's in the top 15 cards in Vintage because it is absolutely, 100% necessary to keep fast combo in check, which makes up that format's entire metagame. Contrasted with Legacy, where there is presently one fast combo deck, and a relatively slow one at that, Force of Will loses a LOT of its comparative value.

    In a format not dominated by turn 1 combo, Force of Will comes at an extremely high cost. A great deal of games in Legacy come down to a war of attrition, and in that scenario, FoW is actually pretty bad, which is why so many people side them out in games 2 and 3.

    Brainstorm, on the other hand, is just straight up overpowered for its cost. He's also right that neither one is ever likely to be banned from Legacy.

  18. #1158

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilla View Post
    I buy his argument about Brainstorm. I don't buy his argument about Force of Will. It's in the top 15 cards in Vintage because it is absolutely, 100% necessary to keep fast combo in check, which makes up that format's entire metagame. Contrasted with Legacy, where there is presently one fast combo deck, and a relatively slow one at that, Force of Will loses a LOT of its comparative value.

    In a format not dominated by turn 1 combo, Force of Will comes at an extremely high cost. A great deal of games in Legacy come down to a war of attrition, and in that scenario, FoW is actually pretty bad, which is why so many people side them out in games 2 and 3.

    Brainstorm, on the other hand, is just straight up overpowered for its cost. He's also right that neither one is ever likely to be banned from Legacy.
    I agree. Well, I agree that they probably won't ban Brainstorm even though that it is the problem card. I think we are much more likely to see Mental Misstep banned even if it isn't really the problem in Legacy.

    I consider Brainstorm somewhat similar to Ritual or Workshop in Vintage. It is a "pillar" of the format. Even though they could ban Brainstorm and bring Blue down to a more reasonable level they will choose another card, like Misstep, to try and nerf Blue. Or at least that's what Drunk Amon Amarth thinks.
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  19. #1159
    Don't ping the hydra
    DrJones's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2007
    Location

    Spain
    Posts

    107,480

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zilla View Post
    I buy his argument about Brainstorm. I don't buy his argument about Force of Will. It's in the top 15 cards in Vintage because it is absolutely, 100% necessary to keep fast combo in check, which makes up that format's entire metagame. Contrasted with Legacy, where there is presently one fast combo deck, and a relatively slow one at that, Force of Will loses a LOT of its comparative value.

    In a format not dominated by turn 1 combo, Force of Will comes at an extremely high cost. A great deal of games in Legacy come down to a war of attrition, and in that scenario, FoW is actually pretty bad, which is why so many people side them out in games 2 and 3.

    Brainstorm, on the other hand, is just straight up overpowered for its cost. He's also right that neither one is ever likely to be banned from Legacy.
    If you don't buy his argument, you'll have to provide actual explanation for the fact that with such a pretty bad FoW, and with no fast combo deck in the meta, everybody and his dog in the Top 16 runs FoW except the deck that casts no spells, and the lone Zoo deck that uses Mental Misstep in its place, because I've been heard the bullshit that people wouldn't play FoW in that scenario countless times, and it would be nice if for once your opinions supported the data and could at least explain it instead of outright contradicting it.
    Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".

  20. #1160
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Prediction:

    Legacy & Vintage: no changes

    Modern: Cloudpost and Ponder banned, Ancestral Vision and Jitte unbanned

    LaPille: braggin how awesome he is, keeping the B&R list short AND handle all those unfair combo decks even Great Sable Stag can't beat
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1432 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1432 guests)