All B/R update speculation.

[maharis]

And here I am thinking it was because Sylvan Library brings home more bacon.

Yes, that is true. Thank you for pointing out that I misrepresented my point. What I really meant was, "The reason SDT isn't played more in non-blue/light blue decks is because Brainstorm is so powerful that there's no reason not to just do that if you're serious about winning."

And the same is actually true of Sylvan Library. The card is awesome, as awesome as it is, it still has some major weaknesses. First, it is far slower than 12x U cantrip. Second, you get no immediate benefit. Third, it is super awkward in multiples but you always want to hit it because it's such an insane card, so playing it as a 3- to 4-of gives you dicey openers.

Sylvan Library is at its best in G-based non-U midrange/control strategies. Trouble is, very few of these are anything close to viable. Yes, Jund/Junk/Aggro Loam/Maverick are T2 occasionally but most people would rather just play all the good cards you would play in those decks anyway with the U suite because it's that much better at consistency.

And in Nic Fit variants, SDT is better because you play Deed.

So basically, the point is that there are definitely decks that could exist and do powerful, Legacy-level stuff that would definitley need SDT because they want to split with Library or not play G/U or dodge something or other, but there's no real reason to even try because why lean on your redundant SDTs/Libraries for consistency when you could just do something U?

It's no card disadvantage at all. You invest mana and time to significantly increase the quality of your cards and reduce dead daws to zero, which alone is more than just making up for the tempo/mana loss in the early game, it wins games on it's own which you can clearly see everytime Miracles players board out their Counterbalances in certain matchups. If a player with SDT in play untaps more than two times with the artifact in play, their opponent is on their road to ruin.

You may think that the impact on card selection makes up for the tempo/mana loss, but in a pure evaluation of the card, it does not. You pay 1 and put a card on the table at sorcery speed and do not replace it until you flip the Top. Then you pay mana each turn to activate it. There's just no other way to describe that than card/tempo disadvantage. Cantrips are not card disadvantage, and they're slight tempo disadvantage but on the other hand you are resolving a spell, not activating an ability that will net you +0 cards over what you would've had otherwise.

An unanswered Aether Vial is also strong, but it's still card disadvantage.

In addition to my precious example of SDT winning games based on sheer card quality (which people hate brainstorm for also), you can reverse the argument for Terminus & Entreat, calling SDT the reason both Miracles are not just playable, but format defying powerhouses. We hopefully agree that SDT is the anchor to hold together the Card Quality, the Stack control, the board control and the finisher in Miracles.dec.

Well, that gets to the argument: Do you ban Show & Tell because every ridiculous permanent that comes out breaks it more, or do you ban Griz/Omni for being uninteractive, derpy I win buttons with S&T? And further, do you ban Brainstorm, or Delver/TNN/DTT/Treasure Cruise/Terminus?

Sure SDT makes the Miracles deck ridiculous. That's because it's crammed with ridiculous cards. Honestly, though, Miracles take work to execute, and if you don't have a way to counter all their stuff for free while you dig around for your Terminus or Entreat the deck is significantly weaker. I know that sometimes Miracles boards out Counterbalance, but how many decks can beat Counterbalance now anyway?

1) Decks with conditional cards -> dead -> reductiin of viable archetypes
2) DtB = Deck with almost no conditional cards but great redundancy
3) SDT + Preordain >>> every other available tools for card-selection/-quality
4) Everyone is playing SDT + Preordain + SFM + TNN
5) Streamlining of the metagame

Yes, we have discussed this. I am not seriously advocating the ban of BS and Ponder out of hand. However, I disagree that doing so results in a reduction of viable archetypes. IMO it opens up new archetypes and makes different engines viable.

Often people reduce the pro-ban argument to "YOU JUST WANT ZOO TO BE VIABLE". Thats actually not the case. I have mentioned a couple times the Zombie deck that was successful for a minute between Dark Ascension and Return to Ravnica. I decided to get into legacy because of that deck -- I loved that it played a healthy mix of old and new cards, notable powerhouses and forgotten gems, and was built on synergy rather than raw power. The key card in that deck was Faithless Looting, of course, but the power of that engine was completely nerfed by DRS + Rest in Peace in the next set. There are probably tons of untapped engines in Legacy that are dwarfed in power by the blue cantrips, and that is where I would hope the format would go in the event of a revamp.

[maharis]

I don't mind Brainstorm at all. It's the hallmark card of Legacy and the single card that gives Legacy its own unique status among all of the formats, as it is only playable in Legacy as a 4-of. Brainstorm is incredibly powerful and tilts the game in blue's favor but I don't mind that. Eternal formats will always be tinted blue and that's fine.

What I do mind is a single control deck with a 1-mana sweeper and a 1+2 mana combo that locks out most decks on the stack. The presence of Miracles powered by SDT locks out a ton of diversity and a ton of archetypes in this format. Brainstorm simply makes most blue strategies more attractive to the advanced player, but it doesn't completely lock out alot of aggro and control archetypes like SDT does.

SDT's presence simply makes tournaments longer, makes matches longer, and crushes the diversity of aggro and control.

SDT is simply a bad card that offers very little fun for the format as a whole. The very mechanics of the Top are cumbersome and clunky. The interaction of Top with the Miracles spells removes all of the "Miracle" flavor from those spells and simply transforms them into dumb, absurdly efficient control tools with little to no intrigue or flavor.

If SDT were to be banned, Brainstorm and Ponder could still set up a Miracle spell, but with reduced certainty, the flavor of a "Miracle" would more often be relevant, and perhaps the deck would never see play again, but I think it would still be good, just not soul-crushingly powerful as it is now.

There's a lot of opinion in this and not a lot of fact.

The fact is that Brainstorm is played in 80% of decks. It is clearly the best option for consistency in Legacy and not playing it is worse than playing it by a long shot.

In most other SDT decks, which barely exist because playing SDT is generally worse than just playing Brainstorm, you don't get people deep in the tank, spinning it multiple times a turn, trying awkwardly to sequence the abilities to get the hand state you want. As a pure selection tool available to multiple colors and strategies, it's fine. It's in the context of the Miracles deck that it is OP and durdly.

Miracles is able to succeed because players are forced to play 8-12 one-mana blue cantrips to make their deck consistent, and once Countertop is down those cards are DOA. Miracles has lots of trouble beating, for example, a Sylvan Library, or a Bitterblossom, or a Thopter Foundry, or a planeswalker -- something that it can't just flip top to counter and provides advantage every turn.

But 2+ mana sorcery-speed permanents that provide incremental advantage can't compete against the other decks that all play 8-12 cantrips and are sculpting the perfect hand and/or board proactively while you try to resolve your sorcery-speed incremental advantage cards.

I am fine with Legacy having a blue tinge too. This is more than a tinge at this point, though. It's a complete bluewash. No other engine will ever be as good as Brainstorm + friends + fetches, and as long as that's the case, decks like Miracles and D&T that target that strategy specifically will be able to succeed.

Jacob Kory said it best on the last EE podcast: If any discussion of the Legacy banlist doesn't start with "What are we doing about Brainstorm" it's not serious. If we are keeping brainstorm because pillar of the format, then we are going to have to get serious about banning cards that are powerful on their own, like Terminus, Counterbalance, Show & Tell, and more that just take the blue strategy and run with it.

[MGB]

There's a lot of opinion in this and not a lot of fact.

The fact is that Brainstorm is played in 80% of decks. It is clearly the best option for consistency in Legacy and not playing it is worse than playing it by a long shot.

I don't have a problem with this at all. Brainstorm is the defining card of the Legacy format. It amplifies the power of blue in many different decks and many different archetypes. Does it give Legacy a blue tint? Of course. But it doesn't obviate entire strategies like Miracles does.

In most other SDT decks, which barely exist because playing SDT is generally worse than just playing Brainstorm, you don't get people deep in the tank, spinning it multiple times a turn, trying awkwardly to sequence the abilities to get the hand state you want. As a pure selection tool available to multiple colors and strategies, it's fine. It's in the context of the Miracles deck that it is OP and durdly.

It sees play in a few (i mean, less than a handful) of fringe decks in small numbers, and it does *not* see play as a core card in ANY deck other than Miracles. Any non-Miracles deck that plays SDT in any numbers could cut them tomorrow and feel very little impact on their list.

Miracles is able to succeed because players are forced to play 8-12 one-mana blue cantrips to make their deck consistent, and once Countertop is down those cards are DOA. Miracles has lots of trouble beating, for example, a Sylvan Library, or a Bitterblossom, or a Thopter Foundry, or a planeswalker -- something that it can't just flip top to counter and provides advantage every turn.

That's great... That doesn't change the fact that 1 mana instant speed Hallowed Burials are bad for the format as a whole, and that a combo that locks out most 1cc-3cc spells when it is assembled is additionally bad for the health of the format.

But 2+ mana sorcery-speed permanents that provide incremental advantage can't compete against the other decks that all play 8-12 cantrips and are sculpting the perfect hand and/or board proactively while you try to resolve your sorcery-speed incremental advantage cards.

I am fine with Legacy having a blue tinge too. This is more than a tinge at this point, though. It's a complete bluewash. No other engine will ever be as good as Brainstorm + friends + fetches, and as long as that's the case, decks like Miracles and D&T that target that strategy specifically will be able to succeed.

Jacob Kory said it best on the last EE podcast: If any discussion of the Legacy banlist doesn't start with "What are we doing about Brainstorm" it's not serious. If we are keeping brainstorm because pillar of the format, then we are going to have to get serious about banning cards that are powerful on their own, like Terminus, Counterbalance, Show & Tell, and more that just take the blue strategy and run with it.

Brainstorm simply incentivizes good players to play blue shells. It doesn't completely crush aggro strategies or non-traditional control on its own. The different with SDT is that its presence alongside Miracle spells and Counterbalance makes a.) non-Delver aggro most unviable and b.) makes it pointless to explore non-Miracles blue control decks. Additionally, it is a clunky, slow card that causes a range of issues in tournament formats where time is a valuable resource. And the question is: what does it add to the format other than allowing a few players that enjoy playing Miracles to play their deck? Nothing.


The bottom line for me is:

- You can argue all you want about whether or not banning Brainstorm would make the format healthier. It could, or it could not. There is no clear resolution here. We could experiment with a banning to see where it takes us, but I'd rather just let Brainstorm continue to see play for the time being. I'm not opposed to a future Brainstorm ban, but I'm simply not clear on how that ban would affect the health of the format.

- However, there is a *clear* resolution if we ban Sensei's Divining Top. Miracles becomes a lot less powerful and consistent which leads to: a larger variety of aggro decks become more viable, a larger variety of control decks become more viable, and tournament organizers, tournament players, and judges benefit from less draws and less slow play. The only downside is that a handful of players who are completely wedded to the Miracles deck no longer get to crush the opposition as easily. Oh well.

Banning Brainstorm results in an unknown quantity, while banning Sensei's Divining Top results in almost entirely a positive effect on the Legacy format.

[Quasim0ff]

Miracles is the list that is making Little Bear aggro hopeless unless it's taxing heavily. Even the bear designed to stop people from drawing too many cards does nothing at all against an EoT Terminus off of a top.

It's true that the blue shell's ability to find and promote Tarmogoyf, Delver of Secrets, SFM, DRS, etc hurts creature aggro badly however Terminus is the nail in the coffin.

I'm pretty sure gaddock teeg backed with Karakas is pretty impossible to beat for Miracles.

[Chatto]

Banning SDT would be aweful for those non-Blue decks whose only way of deck-manipulation is SDT -it being easy to include in your 75-. I understand peoples reasoning, but to me -and probably many others- those non-Blue 'fringe' decks give Legacy it's appeal.

It would be a shame if SDT would be banned, and I would really question if it would take down Miracles. Could it be that SDT would just be replaced?

To me and some others, banning STD would be a big thing, but that is really a personal opinion. I do understand the need of containing Miracles, and SDT would be the obvious choice.

[Barook]

I'm pretty sure gaddock teeg backed with Karakas is pretty impossible to beat for Miracles.

Add Mother of Runes into that equation. Otherwise they'll just double StP his ass, especially the Snapcaster builds.

And even then, they can still bounce it with their own Karakas. Or Venser him if they run the Legend build. Or force you to bounce it with Council's Judgement.

Teeg not on the field = their advantage; it's really good against Miracles, but far from game over.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm pretty sure gaddock teeg backed with Karakas is pretty impossible to beat for Miracles.

Impossible? The guy with counters is going to control when the opponent puts Teeg back in their hand and then they'll do whatever they needed to do at that point. It's a good place for Maverick to be when it happens but impossible is a pretty strong word. Not to mention the Miracles player can just drop Karakas and wait...

The Legends build of Miracles is in a pretty strong place against any hatebear build that isn't messing with it's mana and costs in a big way. Venser gets around Teeg completely and Karakas is in the main list plan.

[iamajellydonut]

Teeg not on the field = their advantage; it's really good against Miracles, but far from game over.

It's also worth noting that you can't attack with Gaddock Teeg in the event that they have an Ambush Viper prepped. You have to have something of a clock to present alongside the Teeg. It's like playing against ANT with things like RIP and Force of Will. You can't just Thoughtseize them thirty times and expect it to work. They just cantrip and sculpt a hand until they feel like blowing you out of the water.

[MGB]

Banning SDT would be aweful for those non-Blue decks whose only way of deck-manipulation is SDT -it being easy to include in your 75-. I understand peoples reasoning, but to me -and probably many others- those non-Blue 'fringe' decks give Legacy it's appeal.

It would be a shame if SDT would be banned, and I would really question if it would take down Miracles. Could it be that SDT would just be replaced?

To me and some others, banning STD would be a big thing, but that is really a personal opinion. I do understand the need of containing Miracles, and SDT would be the obvious choice.

This is such a myth. Show me decks that are NOT Miracles that have recently placed in the top-16 of major tournaments that depend on SDT as a core part of their strategy.

The entirety of these decks is the stray Painter deck that plays 1-2 SDT, or the stray BGx deck that tosses in SDT but doesn't depend on it to execute its strategy.

SDT is only really integral to the Miracles deck. Banning SDT would be mourned by exactly one group of people: those that are accustomed to crushing people with Miracles.

[Chatto]

@ MGB: learn to read. I only tried to explain that SDT has some value for fringe decks which are fun, because some people also like to play for fun. I also said I understand the banning of STD for Legacy as a whole, not just personal feelings.

[MGB]

@ MGB: learn to read. I only tried to explain that SDT has some value for fringe decks which are fun, because some people also like to play for fun. I also said I understand the banning of STD for Legacy as a whole, not just personal feelings.

That's understandable. But the bannings affect tournament play more than anything else. If you're playing for fun at your kitchen table or with your play group, you can basically just enforce your own custom banlist and still play with SDT.

[kinda]

On Top...Quinn would get hosed. I would be sad. Counterbalance is dum but that's why they printed decay, krosan grip, the land that makes creatures uncounterable etc. I agree with banning terminus. That card is over the top.

[wonderPreaux]

On Top...Quinn would get hosed. I would be sad. Counterbalance is dum but that's why they printed decay, krosan grip, the land that makes creatures uncounterable etc. I agree with banning terminus. That card is over the top.

More floated with the Top, amirite?

[solidbass]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say there is somewhat of consensus to ban something from miracles! Is there any way to set up another poll and see where people's feelings lie? I'm not too sure if anyone still feels goblin guide should be banned...

[Admiral_Arzar]

This is such a myth. Show me decks that are NOT Miracles that have recently placed in the top-16 of major tournaments that depend on SDT as a core part of their strategy.

The entirety of these decks is the stray Painter deck that plays 1-2 SDT, or the stray BGx deck that tosses in SDT but doesn't depend on it to execute its strategy.

SDT is only really integral to the Miracles deck. Banning SDT would be mourned by exactly one group of people: those that are accustomed to crushing people with Miracles.

I've played a ton of Imperial Painter and I almost always play 4 Top. It's the card you want to see when your hand isn't explosive, and without it the deck is incredibly inconsistent. Being able to filter your draws in a deck based off of Sol Lands is rare, and it's one of the reasons why Painter is better than most other decks based off of that shell (not so much right now due to the two best decks being bad matchups, but you know what I mean). A lot of games in Painter come down to finding bombs like Moon and Bridge, and SDT does that far better than any alternative. I'm aware that Painter is little more than a fringe deck now, again due to bad matchups being omnipresent, but it was a solid Tier 2 deck that put up some numbers as recently as last summer. My point is, SDT is a lot more necessary to that archetype than you seem to understand. I much prefer bans that nerf Miracles to be targeted and not contain unnecessary collateral damage. Thus, Terminus/Counterbalance.

[Kanti]

Yeah, Top has really shone these last few years in non-blue lists. Painter, Nic Fit, and many random BGW rocks decks make use of it. It's the only way to keep up with BS decks. With that said, Top makes Terminus, Entreat, and Counterbalance terrible, terrible cards to sit across from. CB-Top was annoying before, but at least my opponent would have to tap two of his lands to resolve a Goyf. Now they just EOT shit on my deck.

[Lord Seth]

12-Post usually plays 3-4 copies of Top.

[Lormador]

I believe the most trenchant quote on Miracles is from Philipp Schoenegger, who described the deck as "hilariously overpowered" on an Everyday Eternal podcast. While I don't take the position that any card from the deck necessarily needs to be banned, and don't think that Philipp's claim necessarily implies such a position, I happen to agree that the deck is better than anything else I could be playing right now... and I definitely win more games when I'm piloting Miracles than anything else.

If a card should be banned from this deck, I don't think it should be Top. That would just completely hobble and destroy a deck that a lot of people have really come to enjoy playing, and which furthermore isn't what put Miracles over the top in terms of power in the first place. It is the one mana instant wrath that pushed Maverick out of the meta and keeps the Elves matchup so one-sided.

The other strategies that use Top might not be mainstream or tier 1 material right now, but I think the pilots of those decks needn't be stripped of a unique and essential tool if the goal is simply to make Miracles not the best deck anymore. Removing either of the two miracle cards would accomplish that with minimal collateral damage.

I'm not sure whether the metagame direction following a banning like that would be positive, however. We might end up with pointy-eared tree-hugging overlords, a pestilential insect infestation, and vast hordes of silverware-packing merfolk rogues.

[Finn]

Uhh, the repetition.

I don't know that Legacy needs pure aggro. But Miracles is not responsible for its absence. I am absolutely certain of this because in this very thread you can find people complaining about it before Terminus existed. I wrote an article on it in like 2010 or something when Delver of Secrets came out. Whomever the people are that are pushing this idea need to stop.

Honestly, Elves is pretty much what pure aggro has to look like in Legacy. We have not had a nonblue aggro deck since 2009. Legacy actually has that right now. And even D&T has 26 creatures. Miracles is demonstrably not preventing creature strategies from functioning. As good as Terminus is, Legacy can clearly handle it.

I like playing Brainstorm. I like facing it. And if you ban it, Miracles is no more. This topic has been explored with examples and Miracles players acknowledging this consequence, again in this same thread. But I ask why does Miracles have to go?

There will always be a best deck. Are we on a crusade to bring down the beast simply because it is a beast? The idea of banning Divining Top because it is slow is another topic, but banning it due to its effect in Miracles is a fool's errand.

In a format that is absolutely commanded by hyper efficient blue card quality engines, you guys want to take out the one colorless one. Look past your noses, boys.

[Barook]

We have not had a nonblue aggro deck since 2009. Legacy actually has that right now. And even D&T has 26 creatures. Miracles is demonstrably not preventing creature strategies from functioning. As good as Terminus is, Legacy can clearly handle it.

- Wrong. Zoo was a thing during the Mental Misstep era, which was in 2011.
- D&T is a control deck, not an aggro deck. You, out of all people, should know that.
- Miracles pretty much wipes the floor with any strategy based around creatures (meaning more than just a few finishers) that doesn't run counters or Aether Vial. If you run neither of those two, you're shit out of luck.