All B/R update speculation.

[Ingo]

I don't find Miracles oppressive, but if it was, the solution would clearly be to unban Goblin Recruiter.

Honestly, I wish they would, as it would probably bring goblins back to the tables. If printing cards that suppress variance in nonblue colors is part of the brainstorm-issue, this one's a non brainer (just like using top, experienced players should be able to stack their decks in an acceptable amount of time)

[Stevestamopz]

But so would 50%+ of the rest of the format as we know it.

The results of banning Brainstorm would be too unpredictable, make too many sweeping effects, and would generate far too much collateral damage.

The results of banning SDT are very simple to predict: Miracles instantly goes from Tier 1 to Tier 2, and a set of new control decks springs up to take its place, increasing diversity in the format. Additionally, more aggro decks that used to fold to Terminus spring up once again and bring even more diversity to the format.

Aggro decks that used to fold to Terminus will then get to fold to Abrupt Decay and Toxic Deluge and True Name + Jitte/Batterskull and Swords Snapcaster Swords... aka literally everything else in the format.

I don't find Miracles oppressive, but if it was, the solution would clearly be to unban Goblin Recruiter.

I can only get so erect.

[Spam]

In my opinion, the only problem legacy has right now is Dig through Time. It's not at the level of Cruise unfairness, but it's slowly warping the format to a point were most of the top tier decks runs it and games do end wen one or more copies are cast.

[MGB]

Aggro decks that used to fold to Terminus will then get to fold to Abrupt Decay and Toxic Deluge and True Name + Jitte/Batterskull and Swords Snapcaster Swords... aka literally everything else in the format.

But they don't. The difference between:

- a one mana, instant speed, unconditional Hallowed Burial

and

- conditional 1-for-1 removal (Abrupt Decay, Swords), multiple card combos that can die to artifact hate (equipment+X)... is a CHASM.

[Stevestamopz]

But they don't. The difference between:

- a one mana, instant speed, unconditional Hallowed Burial

and

- conditional 1-for-1 removal (Abrupt Decay, Swords), multiple card combos that can die to artifact hate (equipment+X)... is a CHASM.

Different road, same destination; 1 for 1, 1 for 1, draw some cards, pull ahead and win.

What aggro deck is playing something with a cmc> 3?
What aggro deck is playing Black knight to get past Swords to Plowshares?
They're not even close to conditional removal spells against "aggro" decks.

I drew a match against Esper Deathblade because my 15/2 Piledriver attacking through his Batterskulled-True Name wasn't enough for lethal. Good luck beating that with Wild Nacatl (y)

[iamajellydonut]

unconditional Hallowed Burial

Except it's not unconditional. The same people who purport this are the same people who say "Delver is a 3/2" and then complain when they can't get him to flip.

[Lemnear]

In my opinion, the only problem legacy has right now is Dig through Time. It's not at the level of Cruise unfairness, but it's slowly warping the format to a point were most of the top tier decks runs it and games do end wen one or more copies are cast.

What me bothers most at this point is that OmniTell and Grixis, which are now both DtBs, run a shared core of...

4 FoW
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

...despite different finishers/gameplans. This is an awkward and dangerous development I was talking about before. We need to watch this closely. It cannot be that the format steers towards a ~20 Lands/24 blue card core with various kill-conditions. I hope this is just a current abdomination and not a lasting fundament

[Julian23]

The Gitaxian-Probe-Fetchland-DTT-engine is probably the most powerful thing you can do it Legacy right now, rivaled only by the Miracles mechanic.

Fully expecting DTT to be banned after GP Lille.

[btm10]

The Gitaxian-Probe-Fetchland-DTT-engine is probably the most powerful you can do it Legacy right now, rivaled only by the Miracles mechanic.

Fully expecting DTT to be banned after GP Lille.

I wouldn't be surprised either. Though depending on the top 8/16, I could also see the banhammer falling on Top. I don't think we need the second action, but the first is almost surely needed.

[Crimhead]

What me bothers most at this point is that OmniTell and Grixis, which are now both DtBs, run a shared core of...

4 FoW
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

Grixis doesn't run GProbe, nor does it run the full twenty of the other cards.

[btm10]

Grixis doesn't run GProbe, nor does it run the full twenty of the other cards.

Most Grixis Control lists run 4 Probe.

[iamajellydonut]

Grixis doesn't run GProbe

This is actually completely false.

[nedleeds]

Brainstorm, Fetch, derp is more powerful than any of this. Brainstorm will outpace every card and only Ponder and Force will make a run at it's overwhelming ubiquity. Keep up the Necro ban strategy and ban every surrounding shitty card while the format degenerates.

[Spam]

What me bothers most at this point is that OmniTell and Grixis, which are now both DtBs, run a shared core of...

4 FoW
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

...despite different finishers/gameplans. This is an awkward and dangerous development I was talking about before. We need to watch this closely. It cannot be that the format steers towards a ~20 Lands/24 blue card core with various kill-conditions. I hope this is just a current abdomination and not a lasting fundament

I do agree. However, in my opinion, the real hint of this problem lies in all the other decks that have Dig regardless of their capability of "fueling" it.
For example, if we take a look at SCG Worcester, and we do not look at Grixis or Omnitet, it's not unusual to see Miracles, Deathblades and other deck lists with some Digs, regardless of their ability to play it with maximum efficiency.

Edit:

Dig. Also invalidate one of the best strategy for fighting combo and control decks: discard.
Without Dig, non 2 cards combo strategies or control decks had real issues against heavy discard based decks (omnitell) and were forced to take them to account. With Dig this is no longer a problem because discard actually fuels their strategy.
An example:
Last week I was playing TES against Miracles. I had a kill in my hand, so I proceeded to duress my opponent that had X dead cards a force and a dig. He also had SDT in play, 2 untapped islands and 5 cards in the graveyard.
I had two options there:

1: Take Force
2: Take Dig.

Force had to go sice I couldn't play around it, and the chances of him having a blue card on the top 3 were to hig to take a risk. So I left him with Dig that he casted finding the force and the blue card he needed (he had a blue card in the top 3)
Now, this can be bad luck, sure, but the problem lies on my discard that made him able to cast Dig.
Hope I was clear. I don't hate card, but there's no denying that we are moving to a meta were most decks must run Dig or must close the game before the card is castable.

[nedleeds]

You lose that game against Brainstorm also. He hides Force and draws with top. If the game has gone long enough for the control player to have that many resources you are losing anyway. At least dig is off turn 1, 2 and mostly 3.

[Spam]

I do agree, but brainstorm doesn't allow you to put cards you don't want at the bottom of your deck by its own. Besides, if he had only a blue card in the top 3 that brainstorm would have been dead.
I'm not here to argue whether or not brainstorm has the same power of Dig in this situation. I just wanted to give a scenario where Dig still bypasses your discard spells by doing nothing and actually profits from it where brainstorm dose not.

[Crimhead]

Most Grixis Control lists run 4 Probe.

My bad - I meant Preordain.

[eays]

What me bothers most at this point is that OmniTell and Grixis, which are now both DtBs, run a shared core of...

4 FoW
4 Dig Through Time
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Gitaxian Probe

...despite different finishers/gameplans. This is an awkward and dangerous development I was talking about before. We need to watch this closely. It cannot be that the format steers towards a ~20 Lands/24 blue card core with various kill-conditions. I hope this is just a current abdomination and not a lasting fundament

I agree with you that this is an ugly trend, and I don't think this is a flavor of the week. I think if nothing is done, this will be the look of Legacy for a long time to come. Dig is just a card that delver, blue midrange control, miracles, and omnitell can throw in their decks with almost zero downside, and it automatically ensures that they have an upper hand in any game that isn't over in the first 4 turns and that they are able to find silver bullets to break a board stall and also have the raw card advantage to take the upper hand. When you then BUILD around the card, you get an incredible "card advantage engine in a can" that is extremely hard to hate out and then you basically get to pick your win conditions of choice.

One thing that frustrates me - when the best comparable thing black can due is cast Hymn to RANDOMLY take 2 cards from your hand (and is also a TERRIBLE mid-late game top deck), and also simultaneously fuel Dig, you know there is a problem. For the same mana investment blue gets to SELECT 2 cards 7 cards deep in their deck and also have the upside of it being an incredible top deck any time turn 4 and beyond. Oh and they get to do it at instant speed, which might not seem like a big deal but in game it really is.

This general core, even with tweaks, is incredibly potent, and is ALL over MTGO, and paper is catching on more and more week by week. I've seen this same general core run in tempo, midrange, and control decks, and it basically ensures that in all stages of the game, you're going to have solid game. I think this is the best thing you can be doing in legacy right now. I'm interested to see if it remains in the format.

[Kanti]

Goddamnit no my High Tide deck is going to get weaker. Please stop this guys. On a side note at least Dig isn't a 4-of in every list, because it really doesn' cost 2 mana. But yeah, Dig is pretty busted. One way to fight it is obviously more gy hate, RIP being the premier card here.

[Crimhead]

I agree with you that this is an ugly trend, and I don't think this is a flavor of the week. I think if nothing is done, this will be the look of Legacy for a long time to come.

Decks don't run all those cards, though. Omnitell does, because it's a two card combo and can afford to run twenty four card filters/draw spells. No other deck runs that many cantrips.

Also, none those cards aren't play-style defining. If all the decks with blue run (most of) those cards to accomplish different goasl; and if we continue to see roughly 30% blueless decks, I don't see how format diversity is in any danger.

Dig is just a card that delver, blue midrange control, miracles, and omnitell can throw in their decks with almost zero downside, and it automatically ensures that they have an upper hand in any game that isn't over in the first 4 turns...

I play Lands, and I assure you midtrange and tempo decks are not favoured in the long game. Against combo decks, midrange, tempo, and control are supposed to be favoued in a longer game! What matches are you referring to?