All B/R update speculation.

[MMogg]

I hate to keep picking on you, but no. We really don't want Oath unbanned. Like, there aren't very many cards on the list I want unbanned less than I want Oath unbanned.

Pick away! That's what forums are for: civilized discussion/debate.

One thing, I said I would love to see it unbanned, but I didn't say unban it. A slight difference. I think the field seems pretty diverse as it is now and wouldn't want to see anything changed for the moment. That being said, you didn't give any reasons why you think Oath would dominate the field and completely ruin Legacy. Maybe I'm missing something and being naive (a high probability), but Oath isn't exactly a combo that goes off in the first few turns and wins. There are many answers to it and it certainly wouldn't be an auto-win against the field.

[hungryLIKEALION]

Pick away! That's what forums are for: civilized discussion/debate.

One thing, I said I would love to see it unbanned, but I didn't say unban it. A slight difference. I think the field seems pretty diverse as it is now and wouldn't want to see anything changed for the moment. That being said, you didn't give any reasons why you think Oath would dominate the field and completely ruin Legacy. Maybe I'm missing something and being naive (a high probability), but Oath isn't exactly a combo that goes off in the first few turns and wins. There are many answers to it and it certainly wouldn't be an auto-win against the field.

I'm not sure what kind of oath decks you've played against, but...

Yes. Yes it is.

[sdematt]

I think there are some things that can come off the ban list for some tryouts, and see what happens. I wouldn't mind if they warped the metagame for 4 months, because they'd just ban it again. The 4 months would suck, but hey, I'd love to see how bringing back some old awesome would do.

[Koby]

There is always a first time

I'm not sure if you mean Kird Ape, but I guess it wouldn't be the first time something silly like that would happen.

[AngryTroll]

That being said, you didn't give any reasons why you think Oath would dominate the field and completely ruin Legacy. Maybe I'm missing something and being naive (a high probability), but Oath isn't exactly a combo that goes off in the first few turns and wins. There are many answers to it and it certainly wouldn't be an auto-win against the field.

Oath is pretty ridiculous. It's Natural Order, but costs 1G and combos with your opponent's Goyfs and a land that can only be stopped by Blood Moon (or several other very narrow cards, what, combine a chain of Stifles and Swords and Wastelands to try to keep yourself off of a creature?).

You only need to run seven or eight cards for the combo. You get to run the other 50some cards to support it-that means Counterbalance and Top, Daze, Spell Snare, and Force, I even saw Vintage lists running Negate. You can run Ponders and Brainstorms (and Top), real, old fashioned Counterspells, tons of removal, whatever you want. Basically, it's Thresh, but now it ignores your opponent's removal and gets an extra slot or two for goodstuff.

Then, you get to choose your flavor for win conditions. Do you want Akroma and Hellkite Overlord? Progenitus and the giant shrouded (almost) Platinum Angel?

Oath is awesome. But I think it's probably fine on the banned list. I mean, sure, it dies to Spell Snare and Krosan Grip, but Goyf dies to Spell Snare and Swords, and Counterbalance dies to Spell Snare and Grip. Oath would be at the very high end of the power curve for sure.

[Bardo]

Good lord, if oath gets unbanned, I'm going to have a new favorite deck until it gets banned three months later.

100% agree.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oath has the same problem as Flash; it's cheap, splashable, and requires very few dedicated slots in your deck. It has the weakness of not being blue, or instant, and of only giving you Progenitus instead of the instant kill. However, it's still almost certainly too powerful to unban. There's a dozen or two dozen less contentious cards that should get a trial in the format before Oath is even seriously discussed.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Albeit I LOVE playing Doomsday, I would like to see Top or Counterbalance get banned. Then the format may actually get a little bit diverse and you will hopefully see unique control decks instead of the same garbage that is crammed into them. Top would hurt combo a lot but it would not be devastating, it would restructure Thresh, and Rock decks will take a serious hit. I would like to see what that does to the format.

On a personal note I would like to see Top and/or Counterbalance get banned and let the format get Gush. We might see the old Miracle Grow decks come back, that would actually be kind of cool. Oh, and the fact that Doomsday would be the best deck if they were able to run Gush! Ritual, Doomsday with Gush in hand .... lose! Mainly I would like to mess around with different DD piles and see what all is possible with the card! I think Gush would bring a lot of creativity to the format.

[AngryTroll]

There's a dozen or two dozen less contentious cards that should get a trial in the format before Oath is even seriously discussed.

And a handful of the most contentious cards in the format are arguably not as strong as Oath. See: Counterbalance, Lackey, Goyf.

Oath actually has a fair amount of the problems Goyf has-you can run it with very little commitment in a blue deck. Sure, you can't run Goyf too, but you get a win condition that's maybe even better. Swords costs W, Path costs W, Vendetta costs B, Smother costs 1B; enchantment removal costs W for sorcery speed, 1G for instant speed, and 2G for split second.

[tsabo_tavoc]

On a personal note I would like to see Top and/or Counterbalance get banned and let the format get Gush.

Oh, what a dangerous combo player

Tempo Thresh has already the same dominance as CounterTop Thresh. The proposal would lead to a bipolar metagame, as WotC thought before GP:Chicago, Force of Will VS Dark Ritual, despite the real strength of Combo lying on the Orim's Chant and Silence.

[GGoober]

Oath won't be unbanned. Legacy is predominantly aggro-control, aggro, control, combo. The meta is too rich in creatures for Oath to be healthy. In Vintage, the trouble is to get Orchard to donate a creature. In Legacy, due to the focus on aggro/aggro-control decks, Oath activates all the time, making it far too consistent.

[undone]

There is always a first time

I would just like to note that that would be the 2nd time, kird ape was clearly banned once see FTV exiled:P

Also as a side note are we seriously talking about unbanning oath Thats like having a discussion about tolarian acadamy and saying "its not broken we dont have the power 9" I seriously hope those in favor of unbanning oath check into a mental hospital soon.

For those in favor of gush read above.

The only cards I would like to see off it are idioticly small and wouldnt destroy the format although they would create new decks almost definately and those are land tax and possibly dream halls, halls is no longer a threat to the format, im not going out on a limb by saying that, when we have a format where cards that cost UU and 1 can lock out a dream halls player and waste/stifle/daze/force exist along side quick clocks I can see it being a ligit deck if built well but I NEVER forsee that the deck destroys the format.

Land tax is only on it because pro players will simply sit at X lands and it becomes problematic when people go tundra tax daze your spell, draw 3 lands. Its not over powered but it makes the format shift in favor of blue even more it also helps invalidate wasteland (waste your land both players sit at 0 lands for infinate)

Mainly its on the list I think because they dont want the formats land disruption to become worse. I would like it unbanned but there is no need to do so.

[tivadar]

Land tax is only on it because pro players will simply sit at X lands and it becomes problematic when people go tundra tax daze your spell, draw 3 lands. Its not over powered but it makes the format shift in favor of blue even more it also helps invalidate wasteland (waste your land both players sit at 0 lands for infinate)

Well, really, it makes the format shift in the favor of white. And given the utter lack of white as anything but a splash really now, I don't see the problem in this. Green and Blue are currently the dominant colors, with perhaps a bit of Red. Not to mention, Tax only fetches basics, so the amount of thinning it can do/amount of splashing you can do with it is limited.

[MMogg]

Also as a side note are we seriously talking about unbanning oath Thats like having a discussion about tolarian acadamy and saying "its not broken we dont have the power 9" I seriously hope those in favor of unbanning oath check into a mental hospital soon.

Hehe, I don't think Tolarian Academy and Oath are on the same power level, I really don't, and I think many are overstating Oath's power. It was a great Extended deck, but it didn't dominate the field. Wasn't Tolarian banned in extended? It's still banned in Urza's Block Constructed (you know you all still play this).

I guess I am being (unintentionally) naive, and I really can't see how it would be so much more damaging to the format than it was to Extended back when it was Extended legal. Surely Legacy, with a much larger card pool, would have a lot more answers than old Extended did. What's so different that makes the mere mention of Oath warrant mental institutionalization? Progenitus? One friggin' creature?

I'm truly not trying to be obtuse or stupid, but I admit, I am ignorant to seeing what so many see as so obviously destructive to the entire Legacy format.

[Gheizen64]

This is stupid.

Goyf cost 1G, is a 4/5 or 5/6 that doesn't do anything else and that is already present in every deck of the format and hate almost every other creature out. A lot of people (not me) ask for it to be banned.
You, on the other hand, think that a 1G 10/10 protection from everything creature isn't that much of a problem. Also, that 10/10 could be a lot of different things, like the djiini that bounces something everytime you cast a spell (easy with everything in your graveyard).

Oh, wait, but Oath do nothing against AdNT! The only deck that doesn't play creatures! Too bad Oath is a control deck filled with countermagic, disruption and 4 oath + 1 progenitus as the win condition, so AdNT can suck it and die.

Extended had oath when it had also tinker, so gg.

[tivadar]

Not to mention, I'd imagine in an oath deck the player would add cards that would remove threats/counter/bounce and give your opponent a 1/1 token. So yeah, it could be effective against AdNT.

EDIT: Forbidden Orchard comes to mind...

[johanessen]

Man, Oath of Druids is EXTREMLY POWERFUL. Believe me, it's nearly insane at Flash, does not instakill but has less slots dedicated to the combo so has alot more protection in form of counterspells basicly (removal not that needed because it enables the combo.)

Cards I think are safe for unbanning from list:

-Black Vise.
-Dream Halls.
-Entomb.
-Earthcraft.
-Grim Monolith.
-Hermit Druid.
-Land Tax.
-Mind Twist.


What do you think about Tolarian Academy? It's that powerful in Legacy that has to be banned? I know in Vintage it's extremly dangerous with the amount of artifacts see play, but in Legacy I don't know so tha'ts why I'm asking.

[DragoFireheart]

Hehe, I don't think Tolarian Academy and Oath are on the same power level, I really don't, and I think many are overstating Oath's power.

No, there is no over statement of Oaths power.

Yes, Academy and Oath are not on the same power level. I can only imagine how Legacy would abuse that silly Academy...

No, Oath doesn't need to be unbanned. Last thing we need is CT-Oath Progenitus stomping the entire format in a way only Flash-Hulk could.

Yes, I am confused as to why Land Tax is still on the list. Is there some super secret tech that allows it to break games?

[DragoFireheart]

And a handful of the most contentious cards in the format are arguably not as strong as Oath. See: Counterbalance, Lackey, Goyf.

Oath actually has a fair amount of the problems Goyf has-you can run it with very little commitment in a blue deck. Sure, you can't run Goyf too, but you get a win condition that's maybe even better. Swords costs W, Path costs W, Vendetta costs B, Smother costs 1B; enchantment removal costs W for sorcery speed, 1G for instant speed, and 2G for split second.

If Oath was ever unbanned, I forsee a UGB list, choke full of counters and discard, Counter-Top and it's kill condition is Oath of Druids-Progenitus.

[undone]

Man, Oath of Druids is EXTREMLY POWERFUL. Believe me, it's nearly insane at Flash, does not instakill but has less slots dedicated to the combo so has alot more protection in form of counterspells basicly (removal not that needed because it enables the combo.)

Cards I think are safe for unbanning from list:

-Black Vise.
-Dream Halls.
-Entomb.
-Earthcraft.
-Grim Monolith.
-Hermit Druid.
-Land Tax.
-Mind Twist.


What do you think about Tolarian Academy? It's that powerful in Legacy that has to be banned? I know in Vintage it's extremly dangerous with the amount of artifacts see play, but in Legacy I don't know so tha'ts why I'm asking.

You

are

INSANE.

Unbanning acadamy is like grabing the format, taking a crap on it, flushing it down, and then telling players to play with this shit.

As a side note the only cards on that list that would be interesting but potentialy broken are, earth craft, mind twist and Druid. Vice would go in the standard red deck and maby a few others, monolith is just underpowered for the current format (colorless mana is pretty weak when it requires untap mana)

Entomb: STILL BROKEN GUYS, you arent soposed to be able to tutor for B.

I really want tax to go off but it will stay because it frequently acts as an acestral recall and is always a recall with scroll rack (infact the rack/tax combo is FAR stronger than say Counter/top because it actualy DRAWS 3 cards for the low cost of 1 colorless mana) the only problem is its probably just another blue deck and fetching 6 islands to scroll rack back (the card also ironicaly has good synergy with Counter top =\ ) I dont know if the combo justifies a ban but its pretty strong but I would like to see it back still.

Also to all you"Unban oath" players, oathing sundering titans and tidespout tyrants out is pretty hot in this format.