All B/R update speculation.

[(nameless one)]

If they seriously consider to ban misstep we timewalk back to post-Survival aka Zoo/meerfolk vs. Countertop.

They printed misstep to give all colors a counter for critical Turn 1 plays then ban it because their favourite pet-deck plays could be answered, I open call for MaRo's and LaPille's heads! Printing overpowered chase-cards without testing and Ban them 3-6 months later is Yu-Gi-Oh-Style.

Dumb printings like the double-faced cards and B&R-mismanagement (gentlemans agreement and other shit) made them both unacceptable. Banning Misstep would be overkill in being unable to do that's right

P.S. People preordering Snapcaster mage for that sick interaction with misstep will be fucked

I believe CounterTop was in decline during post-Survival ban/pre-MM. That meta was actually more balanced that ever. I would love have that meta again.

[keys]

I will be giddy if MM is banned. That card gimped several fun archtypes:

Goblins
Canadian Thresh
High Tide
Painter
Storm
Lands
CounterTop (arguable)

And pushed the format towards two decks:
NO RUG
U/W Stoneblade

MM is such a stale card in terms of skill, too. I sincerely hope it goes away.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If they ban Misstep it only makes blue stronger because it takes away every other color's ability to answer combo on turns 0-1 without playing completely terrible cards like Mindbreak Trap that really don't even answer nearly as many combo decks as Misstep.

I assure everyone there is a light at the end of this tunnel.

For years Goblin Lackey, was the best creature in the format. Everyone complained that he defined the format because every deck needed turn 1 answers to Lackey or the game could end before they could stabilize, where is he now?

For years people complained Counterbalance/Top was too strong because it shut down the most important end of the mana curve and warped the format. People adjusted and played different card choices to mitigate the effectiveness of the combo, eventually it faded.

For years people complained that Tarmogoyf was too strong because he was the best creature in the format and there was almost no reason to not run him in basically any deck that could splash for him (oh and he warped the format) where is Goyf now?

Now we come to Mental Misstep. Almost 50% of people at SCGs now are playing Misstep main in a blue shell so of course it is going to warp the format. If even 25% of people play any card it is going to warp the format. (Example how many people take Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile into consideration when they build a deck that relies on creatures to get there? OMG Swords to Plowshares is warping the format! Imagine if all of a sudden 25% of the format decided to run Moat, that would warp the format but I doubt we would ban Moat as a result) Misstep has been out all of 4 months and no new Legacy playable cards have come out since NP (only m12). Pretty much everyone at SCG has just fallen into the mindset that RUG and UW Mystic are the only viable decks, so they make up around 25% of the metagame. Eventually new decks will show up that give those 2 decks fits and the metagame will spread again. It's not a matter of if, just when. If you take away Misstep you just assure that all non-blue decks now continue to scoop to Combo and I assure you that Stoneforge fetching equipment and NO fetching Progen stay viable Misstep or not.

[3eowulf]

The next banned card will be Past in Flames ^_^

[Gui]

If they seriously consider to ban misstep we timewalk back to post-Survival aka Zoo/meerfolk vs. Countertop.

Honestly, post-survival meta was a mess, had a lot of decks working all around, and was awesome.

Only reason I'd be sad to see Misstep go is because it gives Zoo a chance against combo.

I agree with this, but I don't think Misstep should be the solution for Zoo anyways. They should manage to create something better against combo for GRW aggro decks (like Cannonist), that didn't end up destroying the variety of Legacy.

[Lancer]

Now we come to Mental Misstep. Almost 50% of people at SCGs now are playing Misstep main in a blue shell so of course it is going to warp the format. If even 25% of people play any card it is going to warp the format. (Example how many people take Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile into consideration when they build a deck that relies on creatures to get there? OMG Swords to Plowshares is warping the format!

Totally agree with you on this!!!

[Amon Amarth]

I will be giddy if MM is banned. That card gimped several fun archtypes:

Goblins
Canadian Thresh
High Tide
Painter
Storm
Lands
CounterTop (arguable)

And pushed the format towards two decks:
NO RUG
U/W Stoneblade

MM is such a stale card in terms of skill, too. I sincerely hope it goes away.

MM isn't the only reason many of those decks aren't played anymore.

Goblins was on the decline pre-MM. Some of this can be attributed to pros just bashing the deck in articles. You'd have thought that they found out Lackey was fucking their ex-girlfriend or something. Some people really do not like that deck.

Canadian Thresh is all over the map representation wise. I haven't played the deck in forever so I don't know. It still seems to be doing ok, at least according to TC decks.

Painter was good but it's just too easy to hate and it can be difficult to justify playing it when Zoo is one of the most played decks.

High Tide was just too damn expensive. Unless there is a version that doesn't play Candelabras it will never really see significant play.

Storm was never very widely played. MM is much easier to beat than CB-Top. Other than its silly learning curve, I don't know why it isn't played.

Lands is too god damn slow. Tabernacle priced people out as well. Those were far more damning than MM.

CBT was in decline pre-MM also. Most versions of the deck were bad (4 color anyone?) and people finally figured out how to beat it.

MM certainly hurt all these archetypes but there is more going on here than most people would think.

[Gheizen64]

Yeah i think Goblin was killed more by all decks playing either SFM or NO than just MM. The increase of bolts hurted a lot the deck too. Even without misstep NoRUG has 8 bolt + FoW to counteract it on T1. You can put GSZ for Dryad arbor there as answer to T1 lackey. Maverick has a good matchup against Gobs too.
Countertop was dying by itself, while stormcombo was never really popular to begin with. I'm not sure but i think we saw more combo decks in % after MM if only for the success of Hivemind (speaking about SGC here, Europe still see combo regularly).

I wouldn't be surprised if MM ended up banned but no one of the supposed "good pre-MM" old decks don't return.

[keys]

MM isn't the only reason many of those decks aren't played anymore.

Goblins was on the decline pre-MM. Some of this can be attributed to pros just bashing the deck in articles. You'd have thought that they found out Lackey was fucking their ex-girlfriend or something. Some people really do not like that deck.

Canadian Thresh is all over the map representation wise. I haven't played the deck in forever so I don't know. It still seems to be doing ok, at least according to TC decks.

Painter was good but it's just too easy to hate and it can be difficult to justify playing it when Zoo is one of the most played decks.

High Tide was just too damn expensive. Unless there is a version that doesn't play Candelabras it will never really see significant play.

Storm was never very widely played. MM is much easier to beat than CB-Top. Other than its silly learning curve, I don't know why it isn't played.

Lands is too god damn slow. Tabernacle priced people out as well. Those were far more damning than MM.

CBT was in decline pre-MM also. Most versions of the deck were bad (4 color anyone?) and people finally figured out how to beat it.

MM certainly hurt all these archetypes but there is more going on here than most people would think.

Goblins may have been on the decline, but MM was the nail in the coffin. Banning MM would at least let the deck breathe again.

Maybe I'm speculating with respect to Can Thresh, but it's drop off in the U.S. is still correlated.

Painter was good even when Zoo was heavily played. In my testing, Painter is actually favored, since Zoo has to tap out to put up any pressure. Burn is a tougher matchup. But trust me when I say MM is bad for Painter. It's an answer to all of the deck's T1 plays (Welder, Top, Grindstone), making the deck slower and less resilient (harder to get metalcraft for a fast kill, Intuition weaker without welder, etc.). For a combo deck that wants to win fast so the opponent doesn't have time to find answers, MM is a huge drag.

Even without MM, Candelabra might not see play in High Tide, so I don't think it's a cost issue. With the printing of Snapcaster Mage, Solidarity could become the version to beat again.

Storm might not have ever been widely played but it was still a beloved archetype of those that play it. MM + discard (like many Esper lists are playing) is actually harder to fight through than CBTop, since the latter can be answered by Wipe Away/Grip, while you pretty much have to pray for the god draw against the former.

Lands might have been slow previously, but it was still viable. I just hate to see unique decks like this (and these ^) die while the format converges around blue aggro-control.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Goblins should be playing MM, I'm just chalking that one up to the hivemind.

I mean the thing is that it's hard to pinpoint a lot of decks and say, "This deck is hurt by MM." I mean yes if your deck has an actual chance of winning in Legacy you'll have one drops, with a very few exceptions, and so you'll be vulnerable to Misstep. But like Goblins doesn't need Vial or Lackey if it gets to the mid/late game, where MM is useless against it. MM also slowed down the metagame and took out some decks like High Tide and Elves that absolutely trashed Goblins, I don't know if Misstep has been a net loss for Goblins in win percentages.

[Tombstalker]

I doubt anything will be banned in Legacy and I seriously hope that nothing is. I play Legacy BECAUSE of powerful broken cards and degenerate plays. The fact that these cards are format defining is what attracted me to the format in the first place. Legacy is supposed to be an"eternal" format and I find the continual calling for powerful cards to be banned disturbing. If people want to see what Legacy would look like without some of the cards people are asking to be banned just look at Modern. While interesting and arguably more diverse than t2, its really just a poor imitation of a true eternal format like Legacy.

[Amon Amarth]

Goblins should be playing MM, I'm just chalking that one up to the hivemind.

I mean the thing is that it's hard to pinpoint a lot of decks and say, "This deck is hurt by MM." I mean yes if your deck has an actual chance of winning in Legacy you'll have one drops, with a very few exceptions, and so you'll be vulnerable to Misstep. But like Goblins doesn't need Vial or Lackey if it gets to the mid/late game, where MM is useless against it. MM also slowed down the metagame and took out some decks like High Tide and Elves that absolutely trashed Goblins, I don't know if Misstep has been a net loss for Goblins in win percentages.

Some Goblin lists are playing MM and many players have done very well with it. I actually picked up Fanatic again, filling in for MM, after not playing him forever and was surprised with how good he is.

As a Goblins player I'd much rather play against NO RUG, or Stoneblade than against Zoo. Especially Fast Zoo that you can't just trump with Perish because they only play 8 Green creatures. You get quite a bit of time against the former two decks to do your "grind the shit outta you lategame" shtick the deck loves to do. That's not even counting decks like Landstill, and Merfolk, that are good matchups.

@keys: I thought all the successful Painter decks were slower, averaging out to a turn 3 kill? I never played the deck much so I'll just say I was wrong. :P

In regards to Storm, the Esper decks have a similar strategy and disruption suite to Team America which is a pretty atrocious matchup for Storm, regardless of whether or not they are playing SFM and Misstep or Tarmogoyf and Spell Pierce

[CorpT]

I doubt anything will be banned in Legacy and I seriously hope that nothing is. I play Legacy BECAUSE of powerful broken cards and degenerate plays. The fact that these cards are format defining is what attracted me to the format in the first place. Legacy is supposed to be an"eternal" format and I find the continual calling for powerful cards to be banned disturbing. If people want to see what Legacy would look like without some of the cards people are asking to be banned just look at Modern. While interesting and arguably more diverse than t2, its really just a poor imitation of a true eternal format like Legacy.

So you're in favor of unbanning Mind's Desire, Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad then?

[GGoober]

Just ask yourself: Is MM more powerful than a host of spells listed on the B&R? I think the answer is yes. Either they unban more stuff or MM has to go. I would put MM ahead of FoW in Legacy. It forced the meta to grow to decks that can affect or are affected by MM, and as a result, is a self-looping interaction that made itself more powerful/dominant (why need FoW when the meta is revolving around MM? Many decks can play without FoW but most decks play MM even if they do not play FoW).

I know a lot of people are going to to gun me down, but I think that Workshop could be unbanned (IF AND ONLY IF they banned Trinisphere, similar to Vintage). The key issue is the Stompy/Stax archetype in Legacy is quite a big joke. Workshop would only benefit these two archetypes, but Legacy has more than enough tools to deal with Workshop/Stompy/Stax (FoW/Pierce/Trygon/Grudge) etc. Workshop would make Stompy/Stax much more viable, yet allow the format to have the same tools as vintage (more in fact since Brainstorm and many spells aren't restricted). They would just have to ban Trinisphere and I think Legacy with Workshops is viable. I mean, Wasteland still beats Shops, and so would FoW + artifact hate. I just feel that the Stompy/Stax archetype is such the underdog whereas it is quite the central component to eternal formats (see VintagE). Start gunning me down but that's my opinion :)

[KevinTrudeau]

Even if Misstep does deserve a banning (which it doesn't), why this early? I haven't even harvested the crops I planted on my imaginary farm around the time New Phyrexia came out, and yet people already think Misstep needs the boot.

[Tombstalker]

CorpT- I didnt say that although id be more inclined to look at unbanning a card rather than banning more cards. In a format as broad and varied as this there will always be broken interactions, and to me thats the whole point. Wasteland for example is more played then mms, just as easy to include in every deck and wins games outright at times. It is obviously "format warping". To me this term is not appropriate in many cases though since cards like fow, wasteland, brainstorm mms etc are more aptly described as format defining, or cards you think of when you consider getting into Legacy because you can't play with them anywhere else.

I will say this, most if not all cards on the BR list do deserve to be there. But compare the BR list to the cards suggested here for banning and see if you can honestly say that they are ANYWHERE near the same power level. I dont see it.

[Rizso]

Unban of Workshop trinisphere is so gonna get banned, just like sphere got restricted in vintage for the same reason. Also a 3 mana land isnt very healthy. Would be much better to print a new Solland.

Cards I could see geting unbanned for a test period: Earthcraft, Gush, Land Tax, Skullclamp, Memory jar and Mind Twist other cards I dont think have a chance of leaving that list.

Even if blackwise can be considered to be card its just a such a borring card to play against.

Doubt the format with 4 of Windfall or Wheel of Furtune would ever be a healthy one. Minds Desire also feels really unhealthy as well with with Rituals, LEDs etc and 1cc cantrips. Same with all the blue and black tutors shouldnt go of the banlist either.

All in all I dont aggre that Mental Misstep is close to the powerlvl of the cards that are banned.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yeah I think a lot of people are looking at the metagame since Misstep came out and seeing a very narrow view. First off if you want to talk about Mental Misstep warping the format how can you not mention another card that came out the same time that warps the format, of course I mean Batterskull. Granted, yes Misstep is a hard counter vs. Path to Exile, Bolt, or what have you on Stoneforge, but Batterskull means 100x more reason to play Mystic who could just as easily add a Jitte to make the Zoo matchup have fits if Misstep wasn't around and as is there is nothing stopping you from playing a 2 mana answer to SFM and leaving the average Mystic deck with 4 or so counters on turn 2.

Batterskull is bad times for decks that have a plan A of swinging in with creatures mostly under 4 power.

Guess what else just came out a few months before MM and Batterskull? Oh yeah, Green Sun's Zenith. Notice how Green Sun has only been widely accepted in the past few months and wasn't standard right on release? Now any Green deck can tutor up a Kitchen Finks trade with a Nacatl or random Gobo and be up 4 life and a 2/1 for their trouble or a Goyf and just wall up into Progenitus.

The decks that people think MM is killing were already on the decline. Even with MM Zoo is still playable, Goblins is still playable, and the list goes on. Yes these decks are less powerful than they were but even if Misstep is banned they don't suddenly return to their previous power levels. The answers are deeper than Misstep and in fact they may become WORSE overall if Misstep is banned, because now in addition to UW and RUG and Merfolk losing all of one counter to be quickly replaced by another you now lost the best SB weapon you had vs. random combo which you return to completely scooping to or putting in narrow as hell answers and hoping they don't play the 50% of combo decks that your SB hate is viable against.

[alderon666]

Yeah I think a lot of people are looking at the metagame since Misstep came out and seeing a very narrow view. First off if you want to talk about Mental Misstep warping the format how can you not mention another card that came out the same time that warps the format, of course I mean Batterskull. Granted, yes Misstep is a hard counter vs. Path to Exile, Bolt, or what have you on Stoneforge, but Batterskull means 100x more reason to play Mystic who could just as easily add a Jitte to make the Zoo matchup have fits if Misstep wasn't around and as is there is nothing stopping you from playing a 2 mana answer to SFM and leaving the average Mystic deck with 4 or so counters on turn 2.

Batterskull is bad times for decks that have a plan A of swinging in with creatures mostly under 4 power.

Guess what else just came out a few months before MM and Batterskull? Oh yeah, Green Sun's Zenith. Notice how Green Sun has only been widely accepted in the past few months and wasn't standard right on release? Now any Green deck can tutor up a Kitchen Finks trade with a Nacatl or random Gobo and be up 4 life and a 2/1 for their trouble or a Goyf and just wall up into Progenitus.

The decks that people think MM is killing were already on the decline. Even with MM Zoo is still playable, Goblins is still playable, and the list goes on. Yes these decks are less powerful than they were but even if Misstep is banned they don't suddenly return to their previous power levels. The answers are deeper than Misstep and in fact they may become WORSE overall if Misstep is banned, because now in addition to UW and RUG and Merfolk losing all of one counter to be quickly replaced by another you now lost the best SB weapon you had vs. random combo which you return to completely scooping to or putting in narrow as hell answers and hoping they don't play the 50% of combo decks that your SB hate is viable against.

Batterskull woudn't be such a problem if my Path/Bolt/Plow weren't getting countered by a freaking zero mana spell.

Mental Misstep's presence is just oppressive. It warps everything around it, making some strategies unplayable while boosting others up into into space. Just look at the post-Survival-ban-pre-MM era, it was a freaking mess for a long time, and no one single deck/strategy dominated. Now just look at how quickly after MM got released things just got simplified into: "Blue is the best color, just pick a finisher."

[Zilla]

Just look at the post-Survival-ban-pre-MM era, it was a freaking mess for a long time, and no one single deck/strategy dominated.

Is english not your first language? Since when is "a mess" used to describe something in a positive light?

Now just look at how quickly after MM got released things just got simplified into: "Blue is the best color, just pick a finisher."

This was true before Misstep and will continue to be true if they ban it. The only thing that's ever going to change that is if they ban Brainstorm, and even then it's a tossup.