All B/R update speculation.

[Tombstalker]

That still isn't reason enough to warrant a banning. MMS doesn't tutor or ramp/enable anything and horrible in many situations. Show and Tell otoh does enable busted plays, acts as acceleration, at worst protects the permanent you want to put into play by eating counter magic (HM) and is very easy to splash and rarely a bad draw, yet I wouldn't want it banned either. At least not yet :)

[Koby]

Want a good way to break apart the Blue dominance in Legacy?

Unban Survival of the Fittest.

Surgical Extraction deals with the Vengevine threat pretty neatly, and allows non-VV decks to have a "combo" element again. Take for example the low level of Dredge hate in the latest SCG Open as proof that no one respects the graveyard anymore.

[Amon Amarth]

Want a good way to break apart the Blue dominance in Legacy?

Unban Survival of the Fittest.

Surgical Extraction deals with the Vengevine threat pretty neatly, and allows non-VV decks to have a "combo" element again. Take for example the low level of Dredge hate in the latest SCG Open as proof that no one respects the graveyard anymore.

Extraction deals with VV but you still had to deal with Necrotic Ooze too. Or they could Therapy it out of your hand or whatnot. If we are in agreement that SotF was a problem I don't think that Surgical Extraction really is a good enough answer to Survival.

Survival does shit all over Blue, at least. There is that. :P

[joemauer]

Just ask yourself: Is MM more powerful than a host of spells listed on the B&R? I think the answer is yes. Either they unban more stuff or MM has to go. I would put MM ahead of FoW in Legacy. It forced the meta to grow to decks that can affect or are affected by MM, and as a result, is a self-looping interaction that made itself more powerful/dominant (why need FoW when the meta is revolving around MM? :)

You are correct, until you mentioned some non sense about unbanning a three mana land in Legacy.

I would like MM banned just so we can have ANT or TES back. Yeah MM isn't as strong as counterbalance blah blah blah. Well what's worse with storm combo; fighting through counterwalls 7 out of 8 decks in any given tourney or fighting through counterbalance once or twice a tourney?

Anyway, wizards needs to unban Mind Twist. It has been on the ban list too long.

[Nonex]

Want a good way to break apart the Blue dominance in Legacy?

Unban Survival of the Fittest.

Surgical Extraction deals with the Vengevine threat pretty neatly, and allows non-VV decks to have a "combo" element again. Take for example the low level of Dredge hate in the latest SCG Open as proof that no one respects the graveyard anymore.

Despite Surgical Extraction, I think leaving Survival out there with the card that got it banned in the first place is dangerous. They should be interchanged at the very least.

[r0ckstAr]

Yep. Survival offers some nice deckbuilding options.
VengeVine on the other hand is either broken or trash, at the moment it's trash.

I do not understand why they didn't ban VV in the first place

[Gheizen64]

Just ask yourself: Is MM more powerful than a host of spells listed on the B&R? I think the answer is yes. Either they unban more stuff or MM has to go. I would put MM ahead of FoW in Legacy. It forced the meta to grow to decks that can affect or are affected by MM, and as a result, is a self-looping interaction that made itself more powerful/dominant (why need FoW when the meta is revolving around MM? Many decks can play without FoW but most decks play MM even if they do not play FoW).

I know a lot of people are going to to gun me down, but I think that Workshop could be unbanned (IF AND ONLY IF they banned Trinisphere, similar to Vintage). The key issue is the Stompy/Stax archetype in Legacy is quite a big joke. Workshop would only benefit these two archetypes, but Legacy has more than enough tools to deal with Workshop/Stompy/Stax (FoW/Pierce/Trygon/Grudge) etc. Workshop would make Stompy/Stax much more viable, yet allow the format to have the same tools as vintage (more in fact since Brainstorm and many spells aren't restricted). They would just have to ban Trinisphere and I think Legacy with Workshops is viable. I mean, Wasteland still beats Shops, and so would FoW + artifact hate. I just feel that the Stompy/Stax archetype is such the underdog whereas it is quite the central component to eternal formats (see VintagE). Start gunning me down but that's my opinion :)

The "there are worse card on the list" isn't really a viable argument. There are cards there that probably wouldn't even be played against cards that are omnipresent. That's the nature of a lot of eternal B/R lists. If that argument had to be done, then blue cards would have seen the axe at least twice as often as they currently do.

[ddt15]

Misstep sucks.

The card is useless in type 2, so it must have been tailor-made for eternal formats.

I can only imagine all the blue mages getting raging hardons the moment they saw the card. Finally (another) free blue counterspell that answers both Vial and Lackey. Finally after years and years of bitching, whining about how its stupid to lose to T1 plays, even though there already were lots of answers to it. Now finally blue can beat Combo and Aggro, all with the same cards. Skill bro.

Now what red cards are played anymore besides Bolt, CL and Lavamancer? Might as well ban the whole color besides those three. Red already was the shittiest color, blue already the best.

If i wanted to play combo/control decks all day i'd play type 1.

[Rizso]

Its still old blue cards that keeps blue in such a lead. Just look at blue cards with the old frame. Brainstorm, FOW, Daze, SnT and more. Powerlevel between the colors that are printed now are quite even, doubt other colors are ever gonna be able to get up there. There are just so many blue misstakes they printed with the old frame.

[ddt15]

Its still old blue cards that keeps blue in such a lead. Just look at blue cards with the old frame. Brainstorm, FOW, Daze, SnT and more. Powerlevel between the colors that are printed now are quite even, doubt other colors are ever gonna be able to get up there. There are just so many blue misstakes they printed with the old frame.

True, but blue was never as opressive as it is now. There were always niche cards that could challenge blue's dominance (Vial).

[Rizso]

Blue has been nr1 color ever sense old extended with duals died, Brainstorm and fow was king there as well, format with Oath of Druids, necrodonate etc.

Its the splashing with duals that makes blue so strong as well as old blue powerhouses. The possibility to run best of everything and have Brainstorm, preordain / ponder to filter the decks just adds to the fire. Also printing the best planeswalker in blue was a misstake.

We are seeing 2-4 color blue decks everywhere. Just like old extended where one of the best decks where 5-colored blue. Thought then they didnt have easy splashable creatures like Tarmogoyfs, Stoneforge Mystics, Dark Confidants and Tombstalker.

Just look at the banlist, remove all ant cards, you see the list is filled with blue and black misstakes over the years.

Currently banning of any cards isnt an option. Much better option would be printing some real anti blue cards. Hopefully something blue decks just cant splash and filter their ways to. Like they do with Pyroblast and REB.

[Lancer]

Even if Misstep does deserve a banning (which it doesn't), why this early? I haven't even harvested the crops I planted on my imaginary farm around the time New Phyrexia came out, and yet people already think Misstep needs the boot.

Gamblers dont like to adopt to change, Misstep forces players to rethink their playing habits. such as, If I brainstorm on turn 1 will it get countered?

Force of Will is a good counterspell but because players has to remove another blue card, it forces player to make hard choices. Mental Misstep requires no hard choices, I have the MM in my hand and your going to brainstorm, not today (I'll Misstep that).

I think banning MM is a bad move.

[alderon666]

Is english not your first language? Since when is "a mess" used to describe something in a positive light?


This was true before Misstep and will continue to be true if they ban it. The only thing that's ever going to change that is if they ban Brainstorm, and even then it's a tossup.

Brazilian here, English is my second language.

By "mess" I meant all over the place, it felt like every deck had a chance. There was actually a top 16 in SCG where all 16 list were different (there were like 3 NO decks, but they all used different strategies).

After MM, the format quickly tightned into "blue beats all, not playing blue is dumb".

My final point is that MM is such a powerful card that it forces the format to revolve around it. You can try to escape it by playing higher mana or the likes, but then the natural "rules" of the format just drag you down back to reality with Wasteland, Daze, etc.

[Admiral_Arzar]

By "mess" I meant all over the place, it felt like every deck had a chance. There was actually a top 16 in SCG where all 16 list were different (there were like 3 NO decks, but they all used different strategies).

After MM, the format quickly tightned into "blue beats all, not playing blue is dumb".

My final point is that MM is such a powerful card that it forces the format to revolve around it. You can try to escape it by playing higher mana or the likes, but then the natural "rules" of the format just drag you down back to reality with Wasteland, Daze, etc.

QFT. When a card warps the format so severely around itself, something needs to be done. Even Mystical Tutor didn't inspire this level of homogeneity in the format (there weren't a large number of viable decks, but there was greater variety among them). Misstep breaks the (cliche I now) "rock, paper, scissors" philosophy. Now blue-based control and aggro control generally beats both aggro and combo (with rare exceptions, see Hive Mind). As a result, there's no real reason to play a non-blue deck. The format right now actually reminds me of Kamigawa block standard, where (regardless of what deck you were playing) it was "play Jitte or bust." If you weren't playing it, you lost to it.

[3eowulf]

Blue based aggro-control beats aggro, really? Have you ever tried playing either rug or stoneblade against zoo? And if so, which versions?

In my experience rug is screwed if it doesn't land a 3rd turn NO, and stoneblade has some serious problems between qasali and library.

Also, you know, maverik is still a real deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Blue based aggro-control beats aggro, really? Have you ever tried playing either rug or stoneblade against zoo? And if so, which versions?

From the last four SCG opens:

U/W Stoneblade: 62.5% win percentage vs. Zoo
NO RUG: 48.39% win percentage vs. Zoo

Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy_Opens.html

I see one coin-flip matchup and one strongly favored matchup against Zoo from the two pre-eminent blue aggro-control decks, so I have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say in that post.

And Maverick makes up about 1% of the meta currently. So much for it actually being a factor.

[xfxf]

I've quit Magic around 2001 and tried to come back twice after Legacy came to be. Both times I failed because I've been a blue player, I like playing control decks but both times been repelled by how blue and control was placed in the metagame.

I finally got back and started playing Legacy after Mental Misstep was printed because now I could once again play decent control decks (I really disliked how countertop played) like BUG Jacestill or UW Landstill (without the SFM). If they ban MM blue will still continue to dominate the format as the leading support color with FoWs, Brainstorms, Dazes but we will lose the oldschool control decks again.

If people are fed-up with NO RUG and UW Stoneblade decks than they should play Maverick and Zoo more. I've said it before somewhere but in this metagame even Burn would do well as both of these hated blue decks can counter only so many spells and don't have much of a clock.

I think the combo-aggro-control balance of the current metagame is quite good and the prevalance of NO RUG and UW Stoneblade is due to these decks being both strong and fun to play. Mental Misstep is only the scapegoat.

[r0ckstAr]

I don't see how playing more maverick or Zoo will help against stoneblade or no rug.

Maverick just gets owned by stoneblade because all their cards are really good against it. And a Jace who hit the board will probably win the game single-handedly => it will just bounce the 1 fat guy you have on board and then mav has no way to deal with it.
NO rug is more even with the sideboard, but maverick definitely hates fire/ice and grim lavamancer, and can only count on mindcensors/ silver bullets to deal with the NO plan

[3eowulf]

From the last four SCG opens:

U/W Stoneblade: 62.5% win percentage vs. Zoo
NO RUG: 48.39% win percentage vs. Zoo

Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...acy_Opens.html

I see one coin-flip matchup and one strongly favored matchup against Zoo from the two pre-eminent blue aggro-control decks, so I have no idea what the fuck you are trying to say in that post.

And Maverick makes up about 1% of the meta currently. So much for it actually being a factor.

I was "fucking" saying that maybe the zoo decks played at SGC Opens might have to adapt a bit more to the metagame (i.e. their plan against stoneblade is just to burn the mystic before batterskull comes down, and each of their creatures is smaller).

Also maverick, while representig just 1% of the meta (where did this come from?!?) looks like it's really overperforming (if your 1% figure is right).

Was I clear enough or do I have to make you a drawing?

Take it easy. I know you're responding to a harshly worded post, but let's keep it from turning into a slugfest. Same goes for Admiral Arzar. -zilla

[Tombstalker]

Currently banning of any cards isnt an option. Much better option would be printing some real anti blue cards. Hopefully something blue decks just cant splash and filter their ways to. Like they do with Pyroblast and REB.

This. Instead of the community asking for cards to be banned I would prefer we try and influence WotC to print good, hard to splash cards in nonblue colors. Again, powerful cards are the REASON to play Legacy. Lets not take this away but rather demand for a better balance in power between the colors, because the problem is not blues power level so much as the other colors lack of.

Lately it seems that WotC is willing to break the color rules on blues behalf, well perhaps its time they began giving colors like red access to blues specialties. Why not some worthwhile red library manipulation,card draw or even counter magic? In fact why isnt Snapcaster Mage red? That was a missed opportunity IMO but perhaps if we focus our efforts on this rather than bannings we may see some better results? IDK.