All B/R update speculation.

[Crimhead]

... but how many DTT?

Link

Eight out of a possible thirty-two in the top eight. Zero out of a possible sixteen in the top four. Twenty out of a possible sixty-four in the top sixteen.
I didn't check the D&T list. I hear decks can't compete without blue, so maybe they splashed?

Edit - two Delver decks in the top four without DTT. Is this a fluke, or is it possible that DTT has been overplayed lately and players are catching on? Serious question, I only play Lands these days and I'm not much of a tempo expert (I've never cast a Delver in my life).

[btm10]

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes. Dig just hasn't put up enough results to warrant a ban, and neither has anything else. I guess we've found a way to have a meta that's both not fun and balanced.

Edit - two Delver decks in the top four without DTT. Is this a fluke, or is it possible that DTT has been overplayed lately and players are catching on? Serious question, I only play Lands these days and I'm not much of a tempo expert (I've never cast a Delver in my life).

The big thing is that people have figured out that RUG and BUG aren't dead and actually have favorable matchups against UR and Grixis if you play and build them correctly. The Delver landscape is hazier than it was during the Cruise era, but the versions without Dig are still viable options.

[Megadeus]

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes. Dig just hasn't put up enough results to warrant a ban, and neither has anything else. I guess we've found a waybto have a meta that's both not fun and balanced.

This. Ihate digthrough time. It suppresses A lot Things and its miserable for any non dig deck to even attempt to keep up With especially any non blue deck

[Crimhead]

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes.

I'm still crossing my fingers for an unban or two, but I'm not holding my breath.

And unban might be a way to shake up a format (which many people seem bored with lately) without any controversial bannings.

[jrsthethird]

Unfortunately I don't think we're going to see any changes. Dig just hasn't put up enough results to warrant a ban, and neither has anything else. I guess we've found a waybto have a meta that's both not fun and balanced.

Which is why we need an UNbanning. Survival, Vise, Earthcraft, Recruiter, Hermit Druid, and Mind Twist could be unbanned safely to shake things up.

There's only three bans that make sense to me, in order of likeliness:

Top - for the same logistical reasons it was banned in Extended and Modern
Counterbalance - sometimes attacking the less broken card of a combo is more fun for the rest of the decks
Delver - if you want to go the "let's try make other aggro decks viable and ban Wild Nacatl" route

[Memories of the Time]

I'm still crossing my fingers for an unban or two, but I'm not holding my breath.

And unban might be a way to shake up a format (which many people seem bored with lately) without any controversial bannings.

Unban Earthcraft/black Vise/Mind Twist--->nobody cares

[Crimhead]

This. I hate dig through time. It suppresses A lot Things and its miserable for any non dig deck to even attempt to keep up With especially any non blue deck

Baltimore could be a fluke, but the successful Team America, Canadian Thresh, and 4-Colour Delver lists all declined to run DTT. Only U/R and Grixis ran it (for tempo decks).

Maybe it's not the best card some of these decks. Delver decks have been in recession lately - maybe dropping DTT will put them back on the map and shake the meta up a little?

Unban Earthcraft/black Vise/Mind Twist--->nobody cares

I think lots of people would care, and fresh decks would be tested all around the world.

Which is why we need an UNbanning. Survival, Vise, Earthcraft, Recruiter, Hermit Druid, Mind Twist, even maybe Mystical Tutor could be unbanned safely to shake things up.

I think a fraction of that would be enough for a little shake-up. I can't see them unleashing all that at once. We'll be lucky to see a single card come off.

[Lemnear]

Link

Eight out of a possible thirty-two in the top eight. Zero out of a possible sixteen in the top four. I didn't check the D&T list. I hear decks can't compete without blue, so maybe they splashed?

Edit - two Delver decks in the top four without DTT. Is this a fluke, or is it possible that DTT has been overplayed lately and players are catching on? Serious question, I only play Lands these days and I'm not much of a tempo expert (I've never cast a Delver in my life).

I just asked because I was witnessing that DTTs image problem is, that its fueling Delver decks at least as much als OmniTell or Miracles. I would go that far and say the mayority of DTT played in Legacy are within Delver shells

[Crimhead]

I just asked because I was witnessing that DTTs image problem is, that its fueling Delver decks at least as much als OmniTell or Miracles. I would go that far and say the mayority of DTT played in Legacy are within Delver shells

What's your take on the three Delver lists in the top sixteen (two in the top four) running without it? Do you think pilots got lucky despite some questionable card inclusion choices, or that maybe they are onto something?

I'm being completely sincere - tempo ain't my style.

Edit - obviously Delver decks have had success with DTT! And one event obviously doesnt erase that. I'm just wondering if it turns out the card is not a significant improvement (or even is a minor set-back) for certain Delver builds. I suppose I could browse through the last several pages of each of the five or so Delver threads...

[Phoenix Ignition]

If there's one thing that keeps me reading this thread it's the hilarious cognitive dissonance displayed by Legacy players shitting on Modern.

9) banning brainstorm is also a horrible idea. This card defines legacy. Let us be clear here Modern is worse than Legacy. It's not different.
It's worse. In Modern you pit 2 good/okay decks against each other in MTG history. In legacy you pit 2 of the most powerful decks in MTG history against each other. Let's take omnitell for example. Yes, you can win on turn 2 or 3. However, the other
guy/girl can play too. For example, first turn Thoughtseize, duress or force of will etc.

Can we all just take a second to realize that Vintage is the place for the most powerful decks in MTG history, and Legacy is the place where you pit 2 good/okay decks (with an almost *completely* arbitrary ban list, we can all agree) against each other in MTG history? Like, come on, if you want to shit on Modern be my guest, you're on a Legacy forum, but stop justifying it with stuff like this.

[Lemnear]

What's your take on the three Delver lists in the top sixteen (two in the top four) running without it? Do you think pilots got lucky despite some questionable card inclusion choices, or that maybe they are onto something?

I'm being completely sincere - tempo ain't my style.

Edit - obviously Delver decks have had success with DTT! And one event obviously doesnt erase that. I'm just wondering if it turns out the card is not a significant improvement (or even is a minor set-back) for certain Delver builds. I suppose I could browse through the last several pages of each of the five or so Delver threads...

I don't dare to comment on tnis tournament or specific developments of aggro-control subtypes, but during the GP weekend EVERY Delver/Blade variant I faced played a certain number of DTTs

[sjmcc13]

Which is why we need an UNbanning. Survival,

Biased due to owning a play set, but it feels like the ban was never fully justified to me, and the power creep weakens its strength.

Vise,

I would love this due to owning multiple alpha printings, but this I am a bit on the fence about, as it is either a slightly better bolt, or a clock you can not deal with. Vise supports Land/Mana Denial/Desctuction strategies.

Earthcraft,

The combo is not what it once was, the game is aster then it was back then, and there are plenty of answers now. Th card is probably safe.

Recruiter,

Yes please, anyone familiar enough with their deck to be properly playing it in a tournament can pull off the search and stack in a couple minutes, Goblins also needs a boost.

Hermit Druid,

WTF are yo smoking, this card is NOT safe, it is a 1 card combo that goes off on turn 2, and can be built to be able to go off on turn 1... The card is not safe.

and Mind Twist could be unbanned safely to shake things up.

Without the artifact mana of vintage I think this card is safe, and if twist becomes a problem Misdirection (and similar cards) already handle it nicely.

There's only three bans that make sense to me, in order of likeliness:

Top - for the same logistical reasons it was banned in Extended and Modern

Logistics bans when the problem is the player and not the card do not make sense,
People complaining about top is the same problem as people complaining about Fetches taking to much time, 90% of the problem is not the card, but players who either do not know how to use the card properly, or are staling. The only time you should need to think heavily after a top is after a shuffle when there are 3 new cards, as opposed to 1 new card.
Wizards has needed to re-work the stalling rules for years,

Counterbalance - sometimes attacking the less broken card of a combo is more fun for the rest of the decks

Counterbalance is not a problem, Heck they have made enough cards that get around it that it is not funny.
Cavern of Souls (ever notice that both Delver and Pyromancer share a creature type), Vexing Shusher, Abrupt Decay, a well timed Krosan Grip...

Delver - if you want to go the "let's try make other aggro decks viable and ban Wild Nacatl" route

Delver is a mistake, and it probably deserves a ban.

[btm10]

I don't dare to comment on tnis tournament or specific developments of aggro-control subtypes, but during the GP weekend EVERY Delver/Blade variant I faced played a certain number of DTTs

I think people are still trying it out; but I also think that the popularity of the Pyromancer+Dig Delver variants exceeds how good they are relative to RUG and BUG. Especially when you consider that their matchups against RUG and BUG (especially RUG) are pretty rough. I've been playing a Euro-style BUrG list for the past couple of weeks and it's been very good, but it uses Dig very differently from how the Pyromancer/Swiftspear lists use it.

[nedleeds]

If there's one thing that keeps me reading this thread it's the hilarious cognitive dissonance displayed by Legacy players shitting on Modern.



Can we all just take a second to realize that Vintage is the place for the most powerful decks in MTG history, and Legacy is the place where you pit 2 good/okay decks (with an almost *completely* arbitrary ban list, we can all agree) against each other in MTG history? Like, come on, if you want to shit on Modern be my guest, you're on a Legacy forum, but stop justifying it with stuff like this.

It's hilarious, the Legacy high horsers who look down on Modern don't realize Vintage zealots are laughing their asses off at their claims of power.

[LOLWut]

It's hilarious, the Legacy high horsers who look down on Modern don't realize Vintage zealots are laughing their asses off at their claims of power.

The sentiment of so many dozen Vintage players cuts deep.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

The combo is not what it once was, the game is aster then it was back then, and there are plenty of answers now. Th card is probably safe.

Squirrel Nest is kinda crappy; tapped 1/1s with summoning sickness are a lot worse than anything that runs Earthcraft can already do. The real danger of Earthcraft is how it turns every creature into a potentially crazy manadork, allowing allow multiple uses of a given land. An Argothian Enchantress can now tap for GG, GW, or something like WWWWWWWWWWWWWW, speeding the deck up a little bit while cantriping. Still, nothing really dangerous.

I have no idea if it would be played in Elves, but that's probably what gives anyone a bit of pause. Giving the deck another insane mana engine that'sa little more flexible (if less potent) than Sentinel/Druid might be scary. Then again, the deck is so tuned that it might not even fit in there.

[nedleeds]

An Argothian Enchantress can now tap for something like WWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Untap target basic land

No. It's actually pretty shitty. No Cradles. Just basics.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Lol, ten years I've had one in a binder and I've never RTFC properly. Still can live the dream untapping multi-sprawled Forests. Enchantress....now skyrocketing to Tier 3!

Yeah, no reason not to unban.

[Crimhead]

It's hilarious, the Legacy high horsers who look down on Modern don't realize Vintage zealots are laughing their asses off at their claims of power.

At least in my area, a lot of the early Legacy players were disgruntled Vintage players who defected after the BS/Gush/Ponder/MS restrictions. As one local exasperatedly it - "they restricted blue"!

Some big differences though comparing Modern to Legacy vs comparing Legacy to Vintage.

Legacy and Vintage are managed by pretty much identical philosophies. The only difference is that imbalanced cards are banned in one format but restricted in the other. Anything that's not imbalanced is fair game (except ante, dexetertity, and side game mechanics).

Modern arbitrarily excludes half of the games history and is managed by is very different philosophy including using the banned list to enforce a desired artificial pace (and style) of play.

I won't "look down" on Modern nor its player base. But the very principles upon which it was founded turn me off personally. One day I'd like to try my hand with Valakut, just because I like winning with lands, but I doubt I'll ever be willing to pay for the cards.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Some big differences though comparing Modern to Legacy vs comparing Legacy to Vintage.

Legacy and Vintage are managed by pretty much identical philosophies. The only difference is that imbalanced cards are banned in one format but restricted in the other. Anything that's not imbalanced is fair game (except ante, dexetertity, and side game mechanics).

Hah, this sounded intelligent for a second.

Then I remembered the most common decks in Vintage play one (or more) set of the following banned Legacy cards.
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Gush
4x Oath of Druids (usually accompanied by 2-4x Mana Drain)

The format defining decks in Vintage do not play singleton cards that are banned in Legacy. The most prominent Vintage decks are completely focused and built around using 4x the cards that are banned in Legacy.

Legacy's ban list doesn't follow rhyme or reason except for, as you put it, " using the banned list to enforce a desired artificial pace (and style) of play."