All B/R update speculation.

[Stevestamopz]

I dunno which of the extremist camps in this thread is more stupid: the ones who trying to get around the fact that the cantrip shell is about the best you can run to increase the winning percentage in a tournament, or the ones who enter the format which was EVER 50%+ of cantrip-shells and start to complain about the format structure.

Except for all those other decks that were really good at one stage; Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick, Elves, Death and Taxes etc etc etc. But let's just ignore them shall we.

[aluisiocsantos]

I'm deeply saddened that you cannot see me sitting by my desk, drinking a glass of porto although it's Wednesday and reading the thread having a pretty good laugh.

So apparently all those blue decks that are allowed only thanks to Brainstorm's existence - "feed the many different strategies" © - happened to become a mesh of the very same decks that "differ only in their win conditions" somehow and some time in the last two months. Wow, what an unexpected turn of events! I'm surprised to read that "it's all about a shell with 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 FoW, 4 DTT" while even back in May or w/e it was the other way around "brainstrom decks dont exist, your idiot kthxbye", all the while the most obvious culprit is still defended with religious vigor "fromat would die, inevitably die!" or How'd We Play the 28Cantrips.dec to Omnishit on Turn2 telenovelle.

What we're you're at is a metagame that's blue like a smurf and where the only non-Brainstorm pile that can compete are Elves, a deck that looks like a Who's Who of Broken and Retarded list. (Oh yes, the RG Lands. I know they exist. So what?)

So not only the decks converged - yet they are neither Brainstrom nor blue decks, don't you know that colour means nothing, you can't judge cards by color of their skin - turning the Legacy tournaments into dull and painful experience. The said shell of 16 (or is it 20?) same blue cards stifles the metagame, yet there's still no one in R&D who'd have balls to point at the main reason why this condition persists and then simply chop Brainstorm.

With a gameplay as predictable as nedleeds' posts, there's no point of going to the events, as 85% of games feel the same and there's only one question about a turn1 play: will the Ponder be of Lorwyn?

Thank you very much, Wizards, you ruined my penultimate hobby. Time to sell the Volcs.

This is a pretty accurate reading of the meta for the past few years. Also Boreth and Taxes.

[Lemnear]

Except for all those other decks that were really good at one stage; Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick, Elves, Death and Taxes etc etc etc. But let's just ignore them shall we.

And Loam and Lands are good right now. Elves and D&T still are. Goblins and Zoo ever were dogs to combo. None of these was ever close to cantrip.dec in representation. What's your point?

[Adryan]

Quite admirable the stamina of some people here. Wotc showed them a dozen times in the past, that they don't care much about Legacy, but they still have hope with every new announcement. Looking forward to your disappointment :/

[Admiral_Arzar]

I dunno which of the extremist camps in this thread is more stupid: the ones who trying to get around the fact that the cantrip shell is about the best you can run to increase the winning percentage in a tournament, or the ones who enter the format which was EVER 50%+ of cantrip-shells and start to complain about the format structure.

What logic is behind entering Vintage and complaining about Workshops for example? I have no fucking clue where the twisted image comes from that Legacy was ever any significantly different in terms of cantrip use

I don't know how long you've been playing Legacy man (I assume quite a long time), but I started in 2010, right about after Mystical got the axe (and I was pissed, I had been putting the cards together to play NLS slowly and then WOTC shit in my Wheaties). But that's neither here nor there. The blue percentage in that format, IIRC, was about 50%. A good chunk of that was Merfolk which didn't even play Brainstorm and was a legit agro deck. Zoo, Goblins, Aggro Loam, Lands, Junk, all that stuff was at least solid. I mean yeah, 50% blue penetration is a lot, but there's a huge difference between half the format being non-blue and 20% of the format being non-blue. Non-blue in total has shrunk to less than half of that format share even with busted decks like Elves and MUD that weren't around back then. Also - correct me if I'm wrong - but we didn't have as many cantrips then. We had Brainstorm and Ponder, but there was no Gitaxian Probe (I can't stand that card as free information is busted), no Dig, and possibly no Preordain either. So it wasn't possible to play 20drawspells.dec unless you were playing niche cards like Merchant Scroll (High Tide).

I do! It's the vocal minority that constantly complains about our awesome and completely busted format being...busted.

Legacy is great, these tears are delicious, stay calm and brainstorm on.

I like busted formats. I don't like busted formats where I am FORCED to play a particular card or shell in order to be busted. Modern is currently a busted format, but it is a diverse busted format. Legacy is not.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying, yo! I've been playing blue in this format since it was called 1.5 and trops were 20 each. Brainstorms power comes from the cards played with it, not inherently in and of itself. The fun of this format is the brokenness of the power level. Can't handle the blue? Get out of the format.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

This post is idiotic.

Except for all those other decks that were really good at one stage; Goblins, Zoo, Merfolk, Maverick, Elves, Death and Taxes etc etc etc. But let's just ignore them shall we.

Blue zealots like to pretend the format was always this blue. It was at 50% penetration when I started, now it's at nearly 80%. What changed? Something certainly did.

And Loam and Lands are good right now. Elves and D&T still are. Goblins and Zoo ever were dogs to combo. None of these was ever close to cantrip.dec in representation. What's your point?

Go back to 2010-2011 and both Goblins and Zoo had pretty big meta penetration. I mean, sure, they lost to combo but current good decks lose to combo (Lands anyone? Heck even Shardless is pretty bad vs. combo). People assume losing to combo makes a deck not viable, that isn't true at all otherwise nobody would ever play decks that were any less disruptive than Delver. As an aside, I never lost a match to Storm with Zoo - it was assorted bullshit from Avacyn Restored that killed my ability to win with that deck.

[Finn]

I think the layout for this forum is completely insufficient for the needs of this thread. I am seeing people still positing arguments that have been completely debunked. Only politicians get away with that in the real world, and we all know what boring and silly people they are.

[maharis]

I think the layout for this forum is completely insufficient for the needs of this thread. I am seeing people still positing arguments that have been completely debunked. Only politicians get away with that in the real world, and we all know what boring and silly people they are.

I don't know about that, I think this is all a matter of opinion, at least with regard to Brainstorm. I think I'm the only person who's been somewhat swayed by an argument here. (Though it's more that I agree with btm10 that Brainstorm is considered too untouchable to ban).

I have been playing with Brainstorm for a while now, after a couple years of playing Legacy without it. It feels good to win more, but I don't really feel like Brainstorm is why I wanted to play this format.

I left the game initially in Invasion block and came back in Scars. As I was familiarizing myself with what had happened, I was drawn to legacy because of these cards that I saw in winning decklists, were only legal in this format and that I had affection for in my youth:

Hymn to Tourach
Kird Ape
Dark Ritual
Swords to Plowshares
Wasteland
Force of Will
Sylvan Library
Mishra's Factory

And perhaps most importantly, the original dual lands.

And it was cool to me to see cards like Survival, Sneak Attack, Metalworker and S&T that I had, but never tried to break (and sold well before they could be broken) get used in the format. Or to feel rewarded by seeing cards that I always loved, like Mother of Runes or Veteran Explorer, that I never found a good home when I was younger.

I didn't even notice Brainstorm at first. I played the card as a kid, but I never really tried to abuse it or anything (Occasionally with Demonic Tutor, but that's it). Brainstorm was in the first starter deck I opened, but (it appears to me) it wasn't a resonant card for years until the Xerox theory was popularized, followed by the printing of fetchlands.

As someone who started playing in fourth edition, the original duals and cards like Sol Ring, which were accessible if I could find revised packs or even through good trades, were my connection to the world of early MTG. And even today, it's playing duals (like, literally putting the dual lands on the table) that makes me love Legacy. Duals help you explore the tensions and synergies between the colors in a way few other cards can. The fact that their only printings are in the oldest sets, with the classic border, text box, and art style contributes to their evocative nature. The dual lands will always be the defining feature of Legacy to me.

At the same time, I understand why someone who's played the format the whole time would be somewhat attached to Brainstorm. The Brainstorm-fetch engine is incredibly powerful and has driven archetypes to the top of the format since it was created.

But I don't like feeling hostage to it. And of course there are (an ever dwindling number of) viable decks that don't play the engine, but a significant percentage of those decks are built specifically to hose that engine.

When new cards are printed, the only meaningful question to ask about them with regard to Legacy is "How does this card interact with Brainstorm + fetchlands + additional cantrips?" Either the card interacts favorably, and folds nicely into a strategy that is powered by the engine (Monastery Mentor, for example) or fights against that engine (Vryn Wingmare). That's the only hope for new cards to even be considered as format-worthy.

And that sucks. Because I've got all these dual lands, and can produce any color deck I want. But why do I want to do anything but play my blue lands and cantrips? I don't have enough free time to just jam bad decks for fun. For others, they've been on the blue train for so long, why should they be forced to get off?

It's an emotional thing. That's why people keep returning to this thread to make their cases. It's all about your connection to the game and format.

[rufus]

I think the layout for this forum is completely insufficient for the needs of this thread. ...

Perhaps the B/R thread exists more to contain the arguments than to facilitate them.

[LeoCop 90]

I completely agree with Admiral Arzar's post.

Blue decks are now better than ever, and they will become better and better over the years. This is just because blue is an unbalanced colors in magic, and the more good cards get printed, the more they get incorporated in decks with cantrips to find them. There will come a time where blue may have a 95% penetration in the metagame.

But this WON'T happen if brainstorm if banned. Brainstorm is the best cantrip with others not being remotely close. It just seems sad to me that everyone that doesn't like playing brainstorm or blue in general will have to switch to modern at some point. Because, you know, modern is a format that excludes half of magic's history, and i would like to play older cards without having to play brainstorm.

I don't have hopes though. Wizards doesn't care about legacy, many people just accept that legacy is a blue format and it is not supposed to change at all ... so well, i will be playing modern or showing up at legacy events with pet decks knowing from the start that i'm going to lose.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I completely agree with Admiral Arzar's post.

Blue decks are now better than ever, and they will become better and better over the years. This is just because blue is an unbalanced colors in magic, and the more good cards get printed, the more they get incorporated in decks with cantrips to find them. There will come a time where blue may have a 95% penetration in the metagame.

But this WON'T happen if brainstorm if banned. Brainstorm is the best cantrip with others not being remotely close. It just seems sad to me that everyone that doesn't like playing brainstorm or blue in general will have to switch to modern at some point. Because, you know, modern is a format that excludes half of magic's history, and i would like to play older cards without having to play brainstorm.

I don't have hopes though. Wizards doesn't care about legacy, many people just accept that legacy is a blue format and it is not supposed to change at all ... so well, i will be playing modern or showing up at legacy events with pet decks knowing from the start that i'm going to lose.

I would like to tell you about the good news and preach the Gospel of the Chalice...But in all seriousness, I have solved the problem somewhat (at least on a local level) by playing hate decks and/or decks that exploit weaknesses in the blue engine. I have in the process earned myself a reputation as that asshole who is likely to turn one Chalice you, but I am completely ok with that. Chalice decks, Death and Taxes, Lands (and now Aggro Loam, which I am looking forward to playing as I haven't played it in quite a few years) are all good at exploiting heavy blue metagames. The issue comes at larger tournaments where the inherent instability of these decks will come back to bite you. However - if you're only playing 4-round locals - I have some recommendations. Blue players deserve to be punished for their sins.

[GundamGuy]

I would like to tell you about the good news and preach the Gospel of the Chalice...But in all seriousness, I have solved the problem somewhat (at least on a local level) by playing hate decks and/or decks that exploit weaknesses in the blue engine. I have in the process earned myself a reputation as that asshole who is likely to turn one Chalice you, but I am completely ok with that . Chalice decks, Death and Taxes, Lands (and now Aggro Loam, which I am looking forward to playing as I haven't played it in quite a few years) are all good at exploiting heavy blue metagames. The issue comes at larger tournaments where the inherent instability of these decks will come back to bite you. However - if you're only playing 4-round locals - I have some recommendations. Blue players deserve to be punished for their sins .

MUD and Lands (or Aggro Loam if that's what the cool kids call it these days) I agree with. Death and Taxes I don't think is as good in this meta, and lost a lot of it's meta power when Sneak and Show died out in favor of Omnitell.

[Admiral_Arzar]

MUD and Lands (or Aggro Loam if that's what the cool kids call it these days) I agree with. Death and Taxes I don't think is as good in this meta, and lost a lot of it's meta power when Sneak and Show died out in favor of Omnitell.

Lands and Aggro Loam are completely different archetypes FYI. Aggro Loam is actually a pretty old deck that has recently seen a resurgence in Europe - it plays Chalice, Loam, cycling lands, Dark Confidant, and then assorted big dudes and removal typically. But yeah, DnT is definitely not in a great spot - the last time I played it a lot was during Treasure Cruise where it just rofl'd all the Delver BS that was going on at the time. MUD I have been working on with only moderate success.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Anyone who pretends as though Brainstorm hasn't broken this format is deluded. Eventually it'll hit a point where 95-95% of decks will rely upon it and every deck will be constructed around a handful of powerful blue cards all "brought to you by Brainstorm!", we're already edging up to that number now. That's fucking absurd. Enjoying a universe in which everything revolves around the inescapable gravity of Brainstorm is one thing, but don't pretend as though the card isn't overwhelmingly overpowered. It is, like nothing else.

Thank you very much, Wizards, you ruined my penultimate hobby.

Well hey look on the bright side. Since they only ruined your second to last hobby you always have the final one to look forward to. Could be horseback riding, or maybe a ship in a jar is calling your name.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

This is a pretty accurate reading of the meta for the past few years. Also Boreth and Taxes.

Yeah, I didn't check the DnB section and thus completely forgot about the deck. My fault.

Workshops are still totally legal in Vintage, while Trinisphere is restricted.

Yep, but you wrote about Vintage.
I mean banning the rest of blue shell while keeping BS would surely make some sense as BS is pretty original card. Otoh, this reminds me of Necropotence related bans and while BS ain't Necro, there's someting weird about weakening the shell through bans of crappy cards like Serum Visions and such.

I dunno which of the extremist camps in this thread is more stupid...

You're the last one to comment on cantrips-related extremism.

I don't really feel like Brainstorm is why I wanted to play this format.
It's an emotional thing. That's why people keep returning to this thread to make their cases. It's all about your connection to the game and format.

That was an amazing post!

[LOLWut]

Modern is currently a busted format, but it is a diverse busted format.

Heh.

[iamajellydonut]

But this WON'T happen if brainstorm if banned.

Like hell it won't. Modern runs Sleight of Hand. Sleight of Hand. That alone should stand as testament to position of any cantrip right now. Cantrips are treated like tutors because we've in turn banned every last effective tutor on the basis of "well, this'll stop them!", and, since we're still having this conversation, the repeated bannings clearly havent. If you truly want to kill something, you should have started with mythics seven years ago. The world will continue revolving around even clunking compact combos so long as the pieces to the combo exist.

[Crimhead]

The issue comes at larger tournaments where the inherent instability of these decks will come back to bite you.

Loam (aggro) has been a relic for a long time, and just recently making waves and catching eyes. There were only three Aggro Loam decks day two at Lille, yet two of them made top8, so it doesn't look like instability is an issue. They are tool-box style ala Maverick, and have tutors like GSZ and KotR.

I'm not arguing either way about the strength of the deck, or saying anythung sbout the meta. But I think it might be worth watching for it in the future, and be some casuse for optimism. Unlike other Chalice decks, Aggro Loam isn't prison, or even control. It's straight-up midrange which gives it a lot of appeal, and I think more people might start to pick it up after Lille.

[iatee]

People are generally bad at thinking about alternate realities and are reactionary and skeptical towards change - there are entire metas and archetypes that are shut off from competitive play due to the consistency of the tier-1-cantrip-brigade. They're 'just bad decks' right now, but they're only 'just bad decks' in context.

Given 10k+ magic cards, there are lots of powerful and challenging combinations of cards outside of brainstorm+fetchland that even people who just loveeee playing brainstorm+fetchland might enjoy playing - and don't get to play at the moment. Not banning brainstorm has a cost - just one that's a lot harder to think about (you don't get to play theoretical decks in the theoretical meta) than the cost of banning brainstorm (you don't get to play the deck you have right now.)

[sjmcc13]

I would like to tell you about the good news and preach the Gospel of the Chalice...

Is it compatible with the FSM?

I have in the process earned myself a reputation as that asshole who is likely to turn one Chalice you, but I am completely ok with that.

Playing chalice does not make you an asshole, complaining about your opponent playing chalice instead of adapting to your metagame might.
Who here does not think Abrupt decay exists to destroy CounterBalance and Chalice?

[Admiral_Arzar]

Is it compatible with the FSM?
Playing chalice does not make you an asshole, complaining about your opponent playing chalice instead of adapting to your metagame might.
Who here does not think Abrupt decay exists to destroy CounterBalance and Chalice?

I'm not sure how our spaghetti overlord feels about the Chalice, I can really only think of one deck with the two both in it.

Oh yeah, the meta remarks were more for humor than anything else. I've never had anyone get legit pissed off at my playing anti-blue decks, they just come to expect and accept it :P.