All B/R update speculation.

[iGrok]

Hey look, nedleeds bitching about legacy and cantrips. If you hate the format so much, maybe you should just play Vintage instead?

The most interesting thing to me is how from the data no one played DTT until after the TC ban. That doesn't match up with my memory of the format, obviously there was more TC but I thought DTT was still seeing some experimentation?

[Admiral_Arzar]

The most interesting thing to me is how from the data no one played DTT until after the TC ban. That doesn't match up with my memory of the format, obviously there was more TC but I thought DTT was still seeing some experimentation?

It was, but IIRC it was usually a one-of (after the playset of Cruise) with the exception of some fringe decks like Food Chain and Spiral Tide.

[iGrok]

It was, but IIRC it was usually a one-of (after the playset of Cruise) with the exception of some fringe decks like Food Chain and Spiral Tide.

That's why the data looks a little confusing to me, because DTT should show up earlier also.

It'll be interesting to see if the new Days Undoing Affinity deck has enough speed + Chalices to really put a dent in the cantrips.

[socialite]

Hey look, nedleeds bitching about legacy and cantrips. If you hate the format so much, maybe you should just play Vintage instead?

Nah keep him, he harps on the same ridiculously narrow ideals in Vintage as he does in Legacy.

In 11 years of playing competitive Vintage I have never seen the format so free of the "restricted" list UB archetype - in fact I'd go as far to say that those decks comprise second and third tier as far as viability is concerned. Vintage is a great format and so is Legacy.

[Nielsie]

That's why the data looks a little confusing to me, because DTT should show up earlier also.

It'll be interesting to see if the new Days Undoing Affinity deck has enough speed + Chalices to really put a dent in the cantrips.

The data comes from TCDecks so this means it shows card penetration of Top8 decks and it only gathers the top20 of every month. It's possible DTT was played but it was number 21 or for that matter number 21000, we don't know. It's also possible that many many copies start the tournament but none made Top8, this we also don't know. The number 20 card always seems to be around 19-20%, DTT could have been around this number, we don't know.

[Admiral_Arzar]

In this thread I think we have - for a very long time - focused on two diametrically opposed ideas. Those are, of course, the "Ban Brainstorm" solution and the "the format is fine" idea. It's quite obvious that - in general - the two camps break down to those that like playing blue cards and those that don't. Some users (me included) have floated alternative ideas such as fixing recent mistakes by banning cards like Delver/Griselbrand/Terminus/etc. or unbanning a significant number of cards to shake things up. There was significant discussion on whether a Dig Through Time ban on its own would be good or bad for the format, but that was mostly stifled by the "no changes" result (which I will admit I wasn't entirely expecting).

In the "future of Legacy" thread, Maharis floated the idea of banning a bunch of non-Brainstorm cantrips to weaken the blue shell. I don't remember this idea getting much discussion in this thread, so I would like to start an in-depth look into its merits, or lack thereof. This idea has been implemented to an extreme extent in Modern (no good cantrips remain legal) but could be an interesting solution in Legacy. It's interesting to note that the banning of Ponder and Preordain in Modern didn't exactly stop people from playing cantrips in blue decks - they just played worse cantrips. A deck with 28 cantrips is actually solidly tier 2 in that format (Unstorm).

Those that have been playing long enough will remember the days when Brainstorm was the only good cantrip - the second cantrip to play with it was an argument that I'm not sure was ever settled (this is pre-Ponder of course). This touches on something else brought up in the aforementioned thread. There was a point where there were significant arguments regarding the minimum number of blue cards to support FOW and what those cards should be. That of course seems like a joke now considering how many good blue cards have been printed in the last 4-5 years.

My hypothesis is this: a house cleaning on non-Brainstorm cantrips would likely bring back those arguments and severely shake up the format. If Ponder and Preordain (and perhaps Probe and Dig as well) got the hammer, we would be faced with actual choices about how to build decks. Another advantage is that people still get to play with the cards they enjoy playing with - no sacred cows get banned, no set of win conditions leaves the format. Blue-based decks would simply have to improvise, and would face significantly higher variance than before. Cards like Sylvan Library become much more attractive at this point. Of course, there's always Sensei's Divining Top, but losing Ponder is a significant hit to the primary Top deck. A+B combo is much less fluid and consistent without the ability to play 16 cantrips (that are actually good) and Delver - another incredibly obnoxious card and strategy - is significantly less reliable. Anyways, discuss. This thread may be a cesspool but it being active at least makes things interesting.

[maharis]

In the "future of Legacy" thread, Maharis floated the idea of banning a bunch of non-Brainstorm cantrips to weaken the blue shell. I don't remember this idea getting much discussion in this thread, so I would like to start an in-depth look into its merits, or lack thereof. This idea has been implemented to an extreme extent in Modern (no good cantrips remain legal) but could be an interesting solution in Legacy. It's interesting to note that the banning of Ponder and Preordain in Modern didn't exactly stop people from playing cantrips in blue decks - they just played worse cantrips. A deck with 28 cantrips is actually solidly tier 2 in that format (Unstorm).

...

My hypothesis is this: a house cleaning on non-Brainstorm cantrips would likely bring back those arguments and severely shake up the format. If Ponder and Preordain (and perhaps Probe and Dig as well) got the hammer, we would be faced with actual choices about how to build decks. Another advantage is that people still get to play with the cards they enjoy playing with - no sacred cows get banned, no set of win conditions leaves the format. Blue-based decks would simply have to improvise, and would face significantly higher variance than before. Cards like Sylvan Library become much more attractive at this point. Of course, there's always Sensei's Divining Top, but losing Ponder is a significant hit to the primary Top deck. A+B combo is much less fluid and consistent without the ability to play 16 cantrips (that are actually good) and Delver - another incredibly obnoxious card and strategy - is significantly less reliable. Anyways, discuss. This thread may be a cesspool but it being active at least makes things interesting.

I just want to say that this isn't my idea, I actually do think it's been brought up in here a couple times. But thanks for starting the discussion.

The major problem with it is Brainstorm + fetch is still miles beyond how good Ponder is, and Ponder going up to consistent four-of status is more a result of Delve and (wide) Gro strategies emerging with recent printings like DTT, YP, Mentor. So I do think banning Brainstorm (one card) would do a lot toward tapping the brakes on blue.format.

However if the idea is that Brainstorm is literally untouchable, I don't think there's much else you can do but a more scorched earth approach. Let's say:

Brainstorm >>>>>>>> Ponder >> Preordain >>>> Serum Visions > Opt = Sleight of Hand

We're banning two cards instead of one, but it preserves a 4 Brainstorm format. However, Brainstorm is much more important to making the Miracles deck overpowered than Ponder is (Ponderless or Ponder-light builds still do pretty well), so I think if you're going to take consistency away from other decks, you have to also nail CB and/or Terminus/Entreat.

[iGrok]

I just want to say that this isn't my idea, I actually do think it's been brought up in here a couple times. But thanks for starting the discussion.

The major problem with it is Brainstorm + fetch is still miles beyond how good Ponder is, and Ponder going up to consistent four-of status is more a result of Delve and (wide) Gro strategies emerging with recent printings like DTT, YP, Mentor. So I do think banning Brainstorm (one card) would do a lot toward tapping the brakes on blue.format.

However if the idea is that Brainstorm is literally untouchable, I don't think there's much else you can do but a more scorched earth approach. Let's say:

Brainstorm >>>>>>>> Ponder >> Preordain >>>> Serum Visions > Opt = Sleight of Hand

We're banning two cards instead of one, but it preserves a 4 Brainstorm format. However, Brainstorm is much more important to making the Miracles deck overpowered than Ponder is (Ponderless or Ponder-light builds still do pretty well), so I think if you're going to take consistency away from other decks, you have to also nail CB and/or Terminus/Entreat.

I think if you hit Ponder + Delver, GBx decks come back with enough strength to make Miracles less ubiquitous. Delver puts a ton of weird pressure on the format because it rewards playing spells, good spells are blue, blue spells pitch to Force, and then you end up with, well, Delver decks.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I just want to say that this isn't my idea, I actually do think it's been brought up in here a couple times. But thanks for starting the discussion.

The major problem with it is Brainstorm + fetch is still miles beyond how good Ponder is, and Ponder going up to consistent four-of status is more a result of Delve and (wide) Gro strategies emerging with recent printings like DTT, YP, Mentor. So I do think banning Brainstorm (one card) would do a lot toward tapping the brakes on blue.format.

However if the idea is that Brainstorm is literally untouchable, I don't think there's much else you can do but a more scorched earth approach. Let's say:

Brainstorm >>>>>>>> Ponder >> Preordain >>>> Serum Visions > Opt = Sleight of Hand

We're banning two cards instead of one, but it preserves a 4 Brainstorm format. However, Brainstorm is much more important to making the Miracles deck overpowered than Ponder is (Ponderless or Ponder-light builds still do pretty well), so I think if you're going to take consistency away from other decks, you have to also nail CB and/or Terminus/Entreat.

No problem. I agree that Brainstorm with fetches is infinitely more powerful than any other cantrip. However, due to WOTC's behavior here it is quite obvious that Brainstorm is (at least for now) untouchable. My argument came from that premise and from that of searching for an alternative that is more widely palatable to the two highly polarized camps.

I would modify your cantrip breakdown as follows:

Brainstorm >>>>>>>> Ponder >> Preordain = Gitaxian Probe >> Portent >> Serum Visions > Opt = Sleight of Hand

I did some digging in old threads and remembered that Portent existed (and saw play in Threshold for example before the printing of Ponder). It could arguably be placed lower but it seems it saw play over the other lower cantrips, at least in that archetype. Since I started playing Legacy in 2010 I don't actually have firsthand experience of the format pre-Ponder. From my research it seems that it was adopted almost immediately in tempo, and of course Storm (4 Ponder was the norm in Storm when I started playing it in 2010). Show and Tell and other A+B combo also adopted Ponder relatively early on. The recent upsurge we are seeing in Ponder's play is due to Miracles and the new Grixis control deck - it has basically always seen plenty of play in tempo and combo.

Also I would include Gitaxian Probe in the cantrips breakdown even though it "just" draws a card. The card is incredible in Pyromancer and Delve shells, as well as in combo decks. Free information that happens to fill the graveyard and be blue is toxic in a format as varied as Legacy. It makes life much more difficult for fringe strategies as the blue decks you are trying to prey upon often have perfect information about your hand with almost no investment or drawback on their part.

On your Miracles point we are in agreement. I just didn't want to bring up secondary effects on the format in my initial post because it was already too long as is lol. I have been for bans on Terminus and/or Counterbalance for a long time so I would have no issue with that - and there's a good chance it would be necessary. A house-cleaning on cantrips weakens BUG, Omnitell, and Grixis considerably and those decks are all difficult for Miracles to some degree. Then again, the weakening of cantrip-based blue combo is also a very good thing for nonblue decks, and some of those are strong against Miracles and control in general.

[twndomn]

Long story short, to increase the diversity of the format, the format as a whole does not need more card-drawing, filtering, or tutoring.

Fetchland + Brainstorm has already defined Legacy as a whole. Brainstorm without Fetchland is just crappy. Like PSully has said, F + B, along with Ponder, these are the elephants in the room. When you already have decks running those, you give them more weapons like Dig, as a result, decks are converging into either jumping onto the bandwagon or onto the hate-wagon of running Red Blasts.

[Lord Seth]

In this thread I think we have - for a very long time - focused on two diametrically opposed ideas. Those are, of course, the "Ban Brainstorm" solution and the "the format is fine" idea. It's quite obvious that - in general - the two camps break down to those that like playing blue cards and those that don't. Some users (me included) have floated alternative ideas such as fixing recent mistakes by banning cards like Delver/Griselbrand/Terminus/etc. or unbanning a significant number of cards to shake things up. There was significant discussion on whether a Dig Through Time ban on its own would be good or bad for the format, but that was mostly stifled by the "no changes" result (which I will admit I wasn't entirely expecting).

In the "future of Legacy" thread, Maharis floated the idea of banning a bunch of non-Brainstorm cantrips to weaken the blue shell. I don't remember this idea getting much discussion in this thread, so I would like to start an in-depth look into its merits, or lack thereof. This idea has been implemented to an extreme extent in Modern (no good cantrips remain legal) but could be an interesting solution in Legacy. It's interesting to note that the banning of Ponder and Preordain in Modern didn't exactly stop people from playing cantrips in blue decks - they just played worse cantrips. A deck with 28 cantrips is actually solidly tier 2 in that format (Unstorm).

But that's not what was done in Modern at all. In Modern, they banned the best cantrips. The analogy of banning non-Brainstorm cantrips but leaving Brainstorm in Legacy would be like (in Modern) banning Preordain, Serum Visions, and Sleight of Hand but somehow leaving Ponder untouched.

I really don't understand the idea that instead of banning the best cantrip, we should be getting rid of the weaker ones. Brainstorm may or may not be a problem, but if it is a problem you should get rid of the biggest problem, and if it isn't a problem it doesn't make sense to take out less problematic cards than the non-problem card.

I just think that avoiding banning the obviously best cantrip because it's so "iconic" and instead getting rid of the weaker ones doesn't make much sense at all.

[iGrok]

But that's not what was done in Modern at all. In Modern, they banned the best cantrips. The analogy of banning non-Brainstorm cantrips but leaving Brainstorm in Legacy would be like (in Modern) banning Preordain, Serum Visions, and Sleight of Hand but somehow leaving Ponder untouched.

I really don't understand the idea that instead of banning the best cantrip, we should be getting rid of the weaker ones. Brainstorm may or may not be a problem, but if it is a problem you should get rid of the biggest problem, and if it isn't a problem it doesn't make sense to take out less problematic cards than the non-problem card.

I just think that avoiding banning the obviously best cantrip because it's so "iconic" and instead getting rid of the weaker ones doesn't make much sense at all.

It's not about making sense, its about reality. Brainstorm will never be banned in Legacy. It's the iconic card - this was cemented when WotC printed Brainstorm as the GPNJ mat, as opposed to, say, Force of Will or JTMS or Stoneforge/Tendrils/Goyf/[insert card here]. So, rather than continue the endless cycle of pointless complaining, @Admiral_Arzar is proposing something that could, theoretically, actually happen.

[menace13]

this was cemented when WotC printed Brainstorm as the GPNJ mat.

U wot m8?

No, seriously. I cannot even can right now. Literally. I'm trying to can and I can't even can.

[Finn]

So, rather than continue the endless cycle of pointless complaining, @Admiral_Arzar is proposing something that could, theoretically, actually happen.

Oldest rule of this thread and argument on the net in general: I am stating. The other side is complaining.

I have read the last few pages, and I can see some more appropriate descriptions. Arzar is reasoning. You are inciting.

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The actual solution - for the bazillionth time in this thread alone - is for them to print a lot of very good "don't play well with Brainstorm" cards in all five colors.

[iGrok]

U wot m8?

No, seriously. I cannot even can right now. Literally. I'm trying to can and I can't even can.

Have you really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Oldest rule of this thread and argument on the net in general: I am stating. The other side is complaining.

I have read the last few pages, and I can see some more appropriate descriptions. Arzar is reasoning. You are inciting.

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.
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The actual solution - for the bazillionth time in this thread alone - is for them to print a lot of very good "don't play well with Brainstorm" cards in all five colors.

That's another possible solution. "Ban Brainstorm" isn't, because it ain't gonna happen.

[menace13]

Have you really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

You should have just said that from the start. Instead you gave one of the dumbest reasons I have ever read, anywhere, ever. "Oh, look, GP Chi had Akroma playmats. Must mean she is so iconic and that fact cemented it!".

[Lemnear]

In this thread I think we have - for a very long time - focused on two diametrically opposed ideas. Those are, of course, the "Ban Brainstorm" solution and the "the format is fine" idea. It's quite obvious that - in general - the two camps break down to those that like playing blue cards and those that don't. Some users (me included) have floated alternative ideas such as fixing recent mistakes by banning cards like Delver/Griselbrand/Terminus/etc. or unbanning a significant number of cards to shake things up. There was significant discussion on whether a Dig Through Time ban on its own would be good or bad for the format, but that was mostly stifled by the "no changes" result (which I will admit I wasn't entirely expecting).

In the "future of Legacy" thread, Maharis floated the idea of banning a bunch of non-Brainstorm cantrips to weaken the blue shell. I don't remember this idea getting much discussion in this thread, so I would like to start an in-depth look into its merits, or lack thereof. This idea has been implemented to an extreme extent in Modern (no good cantrips remain legal) but could be an interesting solution in Legacy. It's interesting to note that the banning of Ponder and Preordain in Modern didn't exactly stop people from playing cantrips in blue decks - they just played worse cantrips. A deck with 28 cantrips is actually solidly tier 2 in that format (Unstorm).

I don't think WotC could chop secondary cantrips without people calling them out for the bullshit of laying hands on secondary options because you render the cream of the crop untouchable. It's like banning Lotus Petal but not LED if you want to keep storm in check. Players would not accept that by any means.

TBH we have long passed the point where banning one or two cantrips either at the top or the middle of the Foodchain could alter the utter strategic dominance in maximizing cardselection in this format. The only step to alter the formats frame would be a complete rollback like they have done with the Vintage Apocalypse, but I hope no one really wants to see this happening.

[Megadeus]

I don't see why the argument of "Ban Brainstorm" is such an insane idea to people. It makes perfect sense when you look at cold hard data. Take emotions out of it, and it's fairly easy to determine what needs to happen

[Lemnear]

I don't see why the argument of "Ban Brainstorm" is such an insane idea to people. It makes perfect sense when you look at cold hard data. Take emotions out of it, and it's fairly easy to determine what needs to happen

It's not an insane idea, but it won't lead to a 5 color Rainbow Paradise with 20 Decks to beat like some people seems to argue for and get flak for that stupid argument only. Banning Brainstorm could have colateral damage like seen in Vintage and like that format it could cause deckchoices to narrow down due to players being unable to run conditional cards. We can just look at what happened to Tinker after the Brainstorm ban in Vintage to see how lackluster conditional cards like Blightsteel got

[porcupinetreeman]

It's not an insane idea, but it won't lead to a 5 color Rainbow Paradise with 20 Decks to beat like some people seems to argue for and get flak for that stupid argument only. Banning Brainstorm could have colateral damage like seen in Vintage and like that format it could cause deckchoices to narrow down due to players being unable to run conditional cards. We can just look at what happened to Tinker after the Brainstorm ban in Vintage to see how lackluster conditional cards like Blightsteel got

Banning brainstorm is the only option right now for helping the format. Not sure why people are against banning it, guess they just want a boring format for next 10 years.

Banning brainstorm ( and maybe even ponder ) will make the format much more fun.