All B/R update speculation.

[majikal]

I honestly don't think they'll ban Misstep. Just because they did it in Modern, at the very beginning of the format, for the simple reason that they didn't want it to look like Legacy, doesn't mean they will do it in Legacy.

[Di]

lol... wait until Mental Misstep is banned... :)

What are you talking about? Brainstorm was never a problem before Mental Misstep, nor would it be in the event Misstep was banned. Does Brainstorm get stronger with the absence of Mental Misstep? Sure. Is it broken to the point of being banworthy? Absolutely not. The card will be no stronger than it was before Mental Misstep, you know, for the last ten years.


This discussion on Brainstorm is ridiculous.

[CorpT]

Just so you guys know:

From SCG database searching on Top16s they have:

Since 5/22/11
Total Decks: 258
Total with 4 MM Main: 112
Total with 3 MM Main: 32
Total with 2 MM Main: 4

Total with some in board: 16

Total with MM: 164
Total: 235
Total without MM: 71
% with MM: 69.8%
Total number of MM Main: 552
Total Possible: 940
Possible %: 58.7%

Not dominating at all or anything.

[Gui]

Just so you guys know:

From SCG database searching on Top16s they have:

Since 5/22/11
Total Decks: 258
Total with 4 MM Main: 112
Total with 3 MM Main: 32
Total with 2 MM Main: 4

Total with some in board: 16

Total with MM: 164
Total: 235
Total without MM: 71
% with MM: 69.8%
Total number of MM Main: 552
Total Possible: 940
Possible %: 58.7%

Not dominating at all or anything.

I dunno, do you have these numbers for FoW and Brainstorm, pre and post MM?

[Michael Keller]

Or, preferably, the win-percentages of those decks that included Mental Misstep in some quantity?

[Tacosnape]

Why is it necessarily a bad thing that 14 out of the top 16 decks are packing Mental Misstep?

I, for one, find Legacy to be a much more fun format when the card exists. Decks get to interact now. I like to interact. I like strategic games, not games of who can get the more busted hand / win the die roll. I'm not saying there's no place in the format for wild aggro, fast but fragile combo, slower but more reliable combo, etc, but I just don't see where Mental Misstep is that bad for things. It gives people a reason to not play those types of decks, also.

As for all the rest, people aren't adapting. You don't -need- Mental Misstep to succeed, but if Mental Misstep hurts you, it's one of the best ways to protect yourself against it. Decks like Dredge and Hive Mind aren't running it, nor are some faster versions of Zoo and Sligh.

Being extremely prevalent and being extremely overpowered aren't the same thing. Mental Misstep's showing up because it can fit in any deck as a reactive free disruption spell to stop the game from getting too far out of control too fast. It's an amazing card to see in most opening hands. But like Force of Will, it doesn't make the format unfair. It keeps other strategies from making the format unfair.

[CorpT]

I dunno, do you have these numbers for FoW and Brainstorm, pre and post MM?

Since 5/22/11. Decks with:
Brainstorm: 131 (51%)
Force of Will: 144 (56%)
Total Decks: 258

Between 1/2/11 - 5/15/11:
Brainstorm: 120 (47%)
Force of Will: 140 (55%)
Total Decks: 256

Or, preferably, the win-percentages of those decks that included Mental Misstep in some quantity?

I don't have that data.

[Gheizen64]

Why is it necessarily a bad thing that 14 out of the top 16 decks are packing Mental Misstep?

I, for one, find Legacy to be a much more fun format when the card exists. Decks get to interact now. I like to interact. I like strategic games, not games of who can get the more busted hand / win the die roll. I'm not saying there's no place in the format for wild aggro, fast but fragile combo, slower but more reliable combo, etc, but I just don't see where Mental Misstep is that bad for things. It gives people a reason to not play those types of decks, also.

As for all the rest, people aren't adapting. You don't -need- Mental Misstep to succeed, but if Mental Misstep hurts you, it's one of the best ways to protect yourself against it. Decks like Dredge and Hive Mind aren't running it, nor are some faster versions of Zoo and Sligh.

Being extremely prevalent and being extremely overpowered aren't the same thing. Mental Misstep's showing up because it can fit in any deck as a reactive free disruption spell to stop the game from getting too far out of control too fast. It's an amazing card to see in most opening hands. But like Force of Will, it doesn't make the format unfair. It keeps other strategies from making the format unfair.

This.
The card is amazing, but does nothing bad for the format, unless you count slowing it down a bad thing (i don't, it open more space for decks than it close). Differently from FoW also, it doesn't require you to run blue, allowing for uses also in non-blue deck designs. Maverick with a lot of hatebears and MM is a beast of a deck and still rarely seen in the american meta while being extremely popular on the other side of the atlantic.
Also it's interesting to note that the card was rarely seen in Overextended even when elf was a top deck (because of all the decks like Tron that played diverses curves) and is similarly rarely seen in Vintage (where Shop exist). This mean that the moment the format a slightly more diverse curve less centered on 1, the card lose a lot of its power.

[Rune]

But there is no offical word on what card is going to be banned so my fingers is crossed that wizards is legacy wise and realize that Misstep isnt the problem but Brainstorm is the problem.

I agree that Brainstorm is a better card than Misstep, and if you wanted to hit blue hard with the nerf stick, it's the one you should go after. However, it's hard to predict the consequences of a ban on Brainstorm. The general consensus seems to be that banning Brainstorm will have a very, very negative impact on the format. My gut feeling tells me it would do nothing short of killing Legacy, but I can't prove that in any way. Banning Misstep is much safer, because we already know the exact consequences of doing so. I still find it hard to believe they printed a counterspell better than FoW (in Legacy), but they did, and they also admitted the mistake. tl;dr: Taking blue's best reactive spell is sufficient nerfing. Banning Brainstorm is going overboard and is potentially dangerous for the format.

[CorpT]

As for all the rest, people aren't adapting. You don't -need- Mental Misstep to succeed, but if Mental Misstep hurts you, it's one of the best ways to protect yourself against it. Decks like Dredge and Hive Mind aren't running it, nor are some faster versions of Zoo and Sligh.

Being extremely prevalent and being extremely overpowered aren't the same thing. Mental Misstep's showing up because it can fit in any deck as a reactive free disruption spell to stop the game from getting too far out of control too fast. It's an amazing card to see in most opening hands. But like Force of Will, it doesn't make the format unfair. It keeps other strategies from making the format unfair.

I've really tried to make MM work in Zoo and it never did what I needed it to do. There are two reasons to play it in Zoo. To stop their MM and to stop their Swords/Path. The problem is that because it is so reactive, if you don't have it in your hand at the opening, it's not very good. But it's not like you can realistically mulligan hands without MM.

FYI: Decks with MM, without Brainstorm.

Decks with MM, without FoW.

If you look at the decks with MM, without FoW, this is pretty clear. The decks that require a 1 drop to stick (Goblins) or really need to protect something (Junk Depths) are the decks that are doing well with MM that aren't really blue decks. That's it. The rest are blue decks that don't need FoW because MM is just as good.

[Gui]

I've really tried to make MM work in Zoo and it never did what I needed it to do. There are two reasons to play it in Zoo. To stop their MM and to stop their Swords/Path. The problem is that because it is so reactive, if you don't have it in your hand at the opening, it's not very good. But it's not like you can realistically mulligan hands without MM.

FYI: Decks with MM, without Brainstorm.

Decks with MM, without FoW.

If you look at the decks with MM, without FoW, this is pretty clear. The decks that require a 1 drop to stick (Goblins) or really need to protect something (Junk Depths) are the decks that are doing well with MM that aren't really blue decks. That's it. The rest are blue decks that don't need FoW because MM is just as good.

We don't even have to go that far, 5 out of 8 DTB here uses MM maindeck, and the other 3 are Maverick, Junk and Zoo, that sometimes do so as well...

It kinda sux when every deck you start looks like "4 MM + 56 cards"... =/

[keys]

The thing is, not only is it powerful, but it's also super one-dimensional. Got 2 life and your opponent casts a 1cc spell? Cast MM. Free cards with little to no drawback are just mindnumbingly stupid.

If it was a powerful effect but also required some skill to use properly, I would be less critical.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Why is it necessarily a bad thing that 14 out of the top 16 decks are packing Mental Misstep?

Format diversity is good. I'd rather not have 14 variations of the same blue shell in a top 16. Variety is the spice of life, they say.

I, for one, find Legacy to be a much more fun format when the card exists. Decks get to interact now. I like to interact. I like strategic games, not games of who can get the more busted hand / win the die roll. I'm not saying there's no place in the format for wild aggro, fast but fragile combo, slower but more reliable combo, etc, but I just don't see where Mental Misstep is that bad for things. It gives people a reason to not play those types of decks, also.

Yes, there's no place in the format for anything that isn't either:
A. Blue
B. A natural predator of "A"

Taco, while I do love you, I also understand your bias against combo, so I could see how you would enjoy a Misstep-dominated metagame. However, those of us who actually like to play one of the archetypes pushed out by Misstep (i.e. I prefer playing fast combo to any other archetype) are not enjoying it for obvious reasons. Misstep has strangled the metagame and made only a few decks actually competitive, thus removing the variety that made Legacy the best format. I'm honestly more interested in Modern nowadays, because in that format I won't bore myself playing against an endless gaunlet of U/x.dec.

[Tombstalker]

I think that what some people wont admit is that MMS brings diversity to the format, even if a huge percentage of decks utilize it in the process. MMS causes players to consider alternative options at the 1cc slot and also provides the entire format with a universally available answer to extremely power cards, including answering itself. Thats amazing. MMS is a good thing as diversity is one of the defining aspects of Legacy. Personally I consider MMS to be an integral part of the format and I applaud the existance of this card.

Likewise brainstorm is absolutely an integral part of Legacy. MMS makes brainstorm and other 1cc power staples slightly worse without doing what a ban would. Banning brainstorm is as unthinkable as banning wasteland since without these types of cards Legacy does not exist.
Banning brainstorm would be a huge mistake IMO as it would literally kill a significant amount of decks outright.

In addition banning MMS makes seriously powerful cards like aether vial, Sensei's top etc. significantly better. Merfolk utilizes MMS but does anyone think they would mourn the loss of MMS for an instant? I dont as this could well signify their return to dominance.
Overall MMS is a broadly playable answer that only DAMPENS the strength of so many cards in the format that would otherwise border on OP'd. I think a post MMS era would see a call for even more bannings in the wake of its loss.

As a TA player I feel I actually stand to benefit from the banning of MMS yet I still disagree with this discussion. Banning brainstorm otoh would absolutely CRIPPLE tempo strategies to the point of becoming unplayable. I seriously hope they leave this format alone for the time being.

RE banning MMS:
"You can't handle the truth! Son, we play in a game that has spells. And those spells have to be guarded against by mages with countermagic. Who's gonna do it? You? You, SCG? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for vial goblins and you curse the color blue. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that their death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in your deck. You need me in your deck.
We use words like instant, priority, stack...we use these words as the backbone to a color spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a player who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a deck and stand opposed. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!" -Mental Misstep

[Draener]

What they really need to do is put some decent card quality cards (Read: Efficiently Costed) in colors other than blue. Preferably something that let's you get rid of mental misstep if its dead. This would allow non blue decks to more profitably play mental mistep, allowing them to compete with blue versions and still having their out to combo. Maveric already accomplishes this by having such high card quality outside of MM that they can afford a dead draw here or there.

[Lancer]

Tombstalker you are correct, Mental Misstep does add diversity to the format... The problem is the mothership has leaked that a new card is going to be banned (not an old card) and most players are looking at Mental Misstep on the chopping block...

On the other hand Green Sun's Zenith is a new card and I would perfer the banning of GSZ over Mental Misstep.

[Gheizen64]

Format diversity is good. I'd rather not have 14 variations of the same blue shell in a top 16. Variety is the spice of life, they say.



Yes, there's no place in the format for anything that isn't either:
A. Blue
B. A natural predator of "A"

Taco, while I do love you, I also understand your bias against combo, so I could see how you would enjoy a Misstep-dominated metagame. However, those of us who actually like to play one of the archetypes pushed out by Misstep (i.e. I prefer playing fast combo to any other archetype) are not enjoying it for obvious reasons. Misstep has strangled the metagame and made only a few decks actually competitive, thus removing the variety that made Legacy the best format. I'm honestly more interested in Modern nowadays, because in that format I won't bore myself playing against an endless gaunlet of U/x.dec.

It's ironic that you call out Taco for being anti-combo, but whatever.

MM isn't played in Zoo only if Zoo don't play Brainstorm. Zoo with Brainstorm and Misstep is insane actually since it can play Misstep and the card that basically remove the only drawback of misstep (bad topdeck, bad against some decks? shuffle in). Maverick also do this to an extent by having basically only bombs, allowing it to draw dead once or twice.

I'll go there and say banning misstep won't help the diversity of the format at all. Control will start play pierce instead and combo will remain marginalized, Storm could see some more play but Hivemind will downright die. Aggro won't have the ability to play some anti-combo in main deck and will se its combo matchup get worse again to the point it will feel stupid. In the end it will all become more of a coinflip since you'll decrease ways for decks to interact. Goblin may see some play back again, but i suspect the fact that people actually play bolt and SFM+NO as a win conditions nowadays will keep it out of the metagame.

[Gui]

I think that what some people wont admit is that MMS brings diversity to the format

I think I'll stop reading in this point

Otoh, some people fail to understand why some cards are more powerful than other, and how most of the arguments used in favor of not banning a card can also be used, for example, to unrestricting Yawgmoth Will in vintage, or unbanning Black Lotus in Legacy.

Really, legacy is not the format in which we start every deck with "add all the power X cards we have, continue from there".

[Gheizen64]

I think I'll stop reading in this point

Otoh, some people fail to understand why some cards are more powerful than other, and how most of the arguments used in favor of not banning a card can also be used, for example, to unrestricting Yawgmoth Will in vintage, or unbanning Black Lotus in Legacy.

Really, legacy is not the format in which we start every deck with "add all the power X cards we have, continue from there".

The fact that most nonblue decks don't play misstep should give you an hint as why MM is overplayed.

All this calling on MM and how it is the monster that constrict the format when it's a colorless card that only blue play to me is confusing at best.

[majikal]

The problem is the mothership has leaked that a new card is going to be banned

Better have a source to back that claim up, son. Where have they said that anything at all will be banned?