All B/R update speculation.

[nedleeds]

I think by now we've informally established that vintage is the (uber)broken-cards format and legacy is the brainstorm format. Killing brainstorm (regardless of whether it deserves it) means killing the identity of the format.

WTF does this even mean? "the identity of the format". 1.5 was the format that was to be unburdened by the restricted list. THAT is the identity of Legacy. It's only purpose for existing was to say, we want an eternal format where deck building isn't burdened with the mistakes of the past. That was it's definition when it was created, further codified when the lists split. We now have a format burdened with a must play list, starting with Brainstorm, followed pretty closely by Ponder (both of which outpace Force). If I want to play a format with cards so absurdly busted that they saturate 80% of the decks I will. That format is called Vintage, and it's awesome, but I'd like 1.5 to be 1.5 and not be burdened with the broken cards.

Nowhere in 1.5's history has the format been infected with an 80% (non basic land) card without that card being banned. I've documented this multiple times. Misstep was close and it was rightfully banned (and it now plagues Vintage).

The saturation of the card wouldn't be so offensive if WotC would at least remove cards that aren't in the same stratosphere as Brainstorm from the banned list. Earthcraft, Mind Twist, Black Vise, Recruiter and Survival aren't close to Brainstorm's raw power, ability to skirt discard, unmulliganing capacity, and impact on mana base construction (e.g. 18 lands with 4 wastes in a 60 card deck). Actually they are all worse than Ponder also.

Stop making ethereal statements like "identity", "pillar of the format", "format defining". Discuss the card on it's merits and compare the card in question to shit on the banned list.

[nedleeds]

I'm not saying people will always go after the most played card. I'm saying being the most played card is no criteria for banning!

No, but 80% usage certainly is. It's overwhelming ability to unmulligan bad hands, allow for absurd mana base construction, neuter targeted discard, break the miracle mechanic in half, enable and accelerate 2-card combo are the reasons its power level is far above any other card in the format. That's the reason it's at 80%. No other (non-basic land) card in 1.5's history has lasted at that usage and not gotten banned. Usage reflects power level. You sit down to make a legacy deck and if you aren't playing that card you are handicapping yourself severely. Yes elves is competitive, lands is competitive, those are straw men. Evaluate the card, not decks. The card is absurdly busted, the card is played in 80% of decks, the card should be banned. At a minimum the pile of flotsam still on the banned list should be unbanned, then 6 month later when Brainstorm is still at 80%, it should be banned.

[Dice_Box]

I'm not saying people will always go after the most played card. I'm saying being the most played card is no criteria for banning!

Ok, fine, but you then have to admit that the issues people have with the card are in fact not to do with it's penetration as they are to do with why the card has such penetration. When people point out that Brainstorm tops out in the cards played category, it normally comes with other points at the same time. i,e. how twisting the effect has on the format as a whole and due to its power, it warps the meta and somewhat forces itself upon the playerbase.

Stating that you can play other options, like Lands (A deck I love), Elves (Another), Painter (Again) or DnT (Go die in a fire you stupid deck) is but a drop in the ocean when you compare the mass of decks that slot this single card in because, should it be removed, the deck overall starts to fail to work correctly. The balance is insane. I mean sure, list off Elves, Lands and DnT as examples of decks that do not run Brainstorm, but then note that the cards they do share is very very small overall. Lands and Elves share Fetchs basically and DnT and Lands share the land control package, that's it.

Flip the lens and look at decks that run Blue Duals and Fetches. You are likely to find a large core of shared cards, an inbreeding inside themselves that people in general point at and state they have an issue with. It is not as much that Brainstorm is the most run card therefor it should be banned, it is that it is the most run card due to other reasons that push upon the whole format a way of building that you just can not get past. If you are playing Tropical Island, Underground Sea, Volcanic Island or Tundra, chances are you are running Brainstorm because it's a dedicated necessity if you want to play in those shared colours. It's not even like you have a choice. If you are playing a landbase with one of those cards, it is highly likely (Elves with a Blue splash aside) that Brainstorm is the first card you add because your deck with be fundamentally weaker without it. With that kind of restriction people bring up their issues and that is where the "Most played card" comments come from. It's true yes, but that is a symptom, people are pointing at a symptom and seeking a cure.

People complain that the only blue-less options are prison decks or combo decks. Now that we have a blue-less midrange deck starting to put up some numbers people complain because it's a "Chalice deck".

So for some this is not about Legacy being a 56 or 52 card format. Having other options isn't enough. Some people are clearly wanting either specific blue-less options, or at least a specific type of blue-less option (midrange without Chalice, I guess). Otherwise we wouldn't see so much dismissing of tier blue-less decks on the grounds of their play-style..

And that is where comments like "Chalice decks" or "Choke decks" come into play. People are not moving the goalposts when they say "Play Chalice or bust". They are being hyperbolic sure, but it is a symptom of what has become a "Beat it or join it" issue in the format. It is those people throwing up their hands and going "Well fuck it, if this is what it takes" and then they get crucified on this thread for such comments because people see them as shifting the goalposts. It's a thin response to a growing epidemic to say that someone pointing out that the best way to win now is to main narrow ass cards. I mean Painter plays REB over BEB main for a fucking good reason. It has nothing to do with the colour and everything to do with the antibiotics that are needed to fight the plague.

Anyway. For the record I think my views on Brainstorm have changed as I have started to play with it here and there. The card might just have to go. I think I am switching sides.

Dice.

[testing32]

The decks that are currently doing well run 16+ of the same blue cards or prison decks (7 thorn, port/waste, chalice, or some combination of those). We already have one format like this.

[Blastoderm]

The bad part is when the card that is so ubiquitous that it basically says "play this card or lose". That's imo where the format is at right now barring lands and elves.

Not even Elves anymore. People (including myself) have basically given up on the deck in the current metagame. Miracles, Omnitell and Grixis Delver (which swarms with tokens)? No thanks. Sticking with Storm for now.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Point is Legacy could have zero aggro and still feature a better mix of styles than Modern or Standard - which have little (or nothing) in the way of viable combo, tempo, control or prison! Yes, the decks might run more different cards, but they mostly attack the game from the very same angle.

Tier 1 Modern decks: Grixis Control, Jund, Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, Grixis Twin, UR Twin. Tier 2 Modern decks: RUG Twin, Elves, Tron, Junk, Junk Company, Grixis Delver, Zoo, Scapeshift, Amulet Bloom, Grishoalbrand, Infect.

So we have control, midrange, aggro, fast combo, combo-control, aggro-combo, and tempo. Prison is the only archetype not particularly represented in Modern. I'm really tired of "arguments" regarding Modern comprising outright lies. I expect better from someone who spends so much time claiming his arguments are based on facts and logic.

[Crimhead]

Tier 1 Modern decks: Grixis Control, Jund, Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, Grixis Twin, UR Twin. Tier 2 Modern decks: RUG Twin, Elves, Tron, Junk, Junk Company, Grixis Delver, Zoo, Scapeshift, Amulet Bloom, Grishoalbrand, Infect.

So we have control, midrange, aggro, fast combo....

I don't know much about Modern,I'm the first to admit. But I do know about the turn four rule, so I'm afraid you lost me at "fast combo".

[Spam]

Infect, amulet, affinity and reanimator can kill on turn 2. They just aren't that consistent on doig that. To be fair I think modern is dominated by twin and its variations. The meta basically just rotate around it. If you can't deal with twin you're out. With this said, I think comparing the formats is stupid, they are clearly two different things.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I don't know much about Modern,I'm the first to admit. But I do know about the turn four rule, so I'm afraid you lost me at "fast combo".

There is a big difference in speed and playstyle between Twin, which is generally a combo-control or combo-tempo deck depending on variation (and rarely goes for it turn 4 unless the opponent simply can't interact), and all-in combo decks like Amulet Bloom and Grishoalbrand. Those decks have not-uncommon turn-2 nut-draws and lack any real non-combo backup plan. In the Legacy context, it would be like comparing a hybrid combo deck like Food Chain or Elves with say TES.

Infect, amulet, affinity and reanimator can kill on turn 2. They just aren't that consistent on doig that. To be fair I think modern is dominated by twin and its variations. The meta basically just rotate around it. If you can't deal with twin you're out. With this said, I think comparing the formats is stupid, they are clearly two different things.

Modern is currently dominated by Jund and Twin. Those two decks together make up a solid 20-25% of the metagame when their percentages are combined, but beyond those two it is currently quite diverse. It is still possible to compete without being great against those two (i.e. Affinity isn't particularly good against either of them, but is still a DTB). Consider Lands in Legacy - the deck is a dog against Omnitell and Storm but has solid matchups against most everything else. It loses to a big chunk of the meta but is still a DTB or at least close to one due to its other matchups.

[maharis]

I played a pretty stock Grixis list in an IQ the other day. One basic land, 25 one-drops. I was 4-0 against decks not playing Brainstorm. These included two decks playing Chalice, one of which also played 4 blood moon and I believe some maindeck red blasts. I also played against a deck with 5+ red blast effects main, plus Blood Moon, plus Magus of the Moon. Didn't matter. Even against the decks built to prey on my blue-dual, one-drop heavy deck, I won.

FWIW, I was 1-2 against other decks playing Brainstorm, 3-3 in games (0-2, 1-2, 2-0).

The cantrip strategy isn't 75% of the format just because people like it, it's 75% of the format because playing anything else is a bad idea if you want to win. In the top 16 of the tournament I played, there were 3 decks without cantrips (about 20%). There were no MB blood moons or chalices, despite the fact that I played against 3 decks on that plan personally and saw other decks like MUD in the room that were unrepresented at the top tables. All the diversity that is championed in Legacy is being crowded out by the superiority of the cantrip shell.

[CabalTherapy]

I played a pretty stock Grixis list in an IQ the other day. One basic land, 25 one-drops. I was 4-0 against decks not playing Brainstorm. These included two decks playing Chalice, one of which also played 4 blood moon and I believe some maindeck red blasts. I also played against a deck with 5+ red blast effects main, plus Blood Moon, plus Magus of the Moon. Didn't matter. Even against the decks built to prey on my blue-dual, one-drop heavy deck, I won.

FWIW, I was 1-2 against other decks playing Brainstorm, 3-3 in games (0-2, 1-2, 2-0).

The cantrip strategy isn't 75% of the format just because people like it, it's 75% of the format because playing anything else is a bad idea if you want to win. In the top 16 of the tournament I played, there were 3 decks without cantrips (about 20%). There were no MB blood moons or chalices, despite the fact that I played against 3 decks on that plan personally and saw other decks like MUD in the room that were unrepresented at the top tables. All the diversity that is championed in Legacy is being crowded out by the superiority of the cantrip shell.

I played a local tournament yesterday being the only one without Force of Will and Brainstorm. Obviously I won going 4-0. 100% against blue decks with a non-blue one. And it wasn't Dregde or MUD.

[nedleeds]

Been 4-0 at many events playing without Brainstorm. It's rounds 5-11 that catch up with you. Having to mulligan for real hurts.

[maharis]

I played a local tournament yesterday being the only one without Force of Will and Brainstorm. Obviously I won going 4-0. 100% against blue decks with a non-blue one. And it wasn't Dregde or MUD.

Yeah, the decks I played against were doing fine after 4 rounds too.

We're talking about a 7-round, 80-person, competitive REL tournament with a prize pool of $5,000, not a local.

[CabalTherapy]

Been 4-0 at many events playing without Brainstorm. It's rounds 5-11 that catch up with you. Having to mulligan for real hurts.

Played Burn. Mulligans don't matter here.

[CabalTherapy]

Yeah, the decks I played against were doing fine after 4 rounds too.

We're talking about a 7-round, 80-person, competitive REL tournament with a prize pool of $5,000, not a local.

Sry for 2x post.
Once, I took Burn to a bigger event: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8202&iddeck=59817
131 players, 8 rounds, no problem, 6-1-1 into Top8.

[nedleeds]

Played Burn. Mulligans don't matter here.

Rather just not play than play burn.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I played a pretty stock Grixis list in an IQ the other day. One basic land, 25 one-drops. I was 4-0 against decks not playing Brainstorm. These included two decks playing Chalice, one of which also played 4 blood moon and I believe some maindeck red blasts. I also played against a deck with 5+ red blast effects main, plus Blood Moon, plus Magus of the Moon. Didn't matter. Even against the decks built to prey on my blue-dual, one-drop heavy deck, I won.

FWIW, I was 1-2 against other decks playing Brainstorm, 3-3 in games (0-2, 1-2, 2-0).

The cantrip strategy isn't 75% of the format just because people like it, it's 75% of the format because playing anything else is a bad idea if you want to win. In the top 16 of the tournament I played, there were 3 decks without cantrips (about 20%). There were no MB blood moons or chalices, despite the fact that I played against 3 decks on that plan personally and saw other decks like MUD in the room that were unrepresented at the top tables. All the diversity that is championed in Legacy is being crowded out by the superiority of the cantrip shell.

Sounds about right. Hate just doesn't get you there when you lack consistency and the blue player can just a turn one Delver and then counter/discard everything relevant. I know this from experience playing basically every blue hate deck Legacy has to offer.

Rather just not play than play burn.

Seconded.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Sry for 2x post.
Once, I took Burn to a bigger event: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=8202&iddeck=59817
131 players, 8 rounds, no problem, 6-1-1 into Top8.

That was in April of 2012 when the meta looked like this:

1 Blade Control
2 Threshold UGr
3 Jund
4 Sneak Attack
5 Miracle Control
6 Team America
7 Maverick
8 Merfolks
9 Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10 BUG Control
11 Goblins
12 Reanimator

Now everything is Sultai this and Temur that.

[Admiral_Arzar]

That was in April of 2012 when the meta looked like this:

1 Blade Control
2 Threshold UGr
3 Jund
4 Sneak Attack
5 Miracle Control
6 Team America
7 Maverick
8 Merfolks
9 Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10 BUG Control
11 Goblins
12 Reanimator

Now everything is Sultai this and Temur that.

Yeah I'm sure there's plenty of bad deck success stories if we rewind a few years. I mean, I was doing pretty well with High Tide back then but that doesn't mean I'd recommend that deck for a tournament.

[Crimhead]

I mean Painter plays REB over BEB main for a fucking good reason. It has nothing to do with the colour and everything to do with the antibiotics that are needed to fight the plague.

I think the main reasons are as follows:

1. Imperial Recruiter is red. Playing BEB would mean splashing another colour, which obviously makes the deck less consistent (and in Painter's case also more vulnerable to its own prized Moon effects).
2. Combo decks need protection. REB can answer the blue counter-spells which will stop Painter in its tracks. On the other hand, there is sweet little in the way of red disruption which Painter is worried about.

Are you seriously suggesting Painter was developed to fight blue decks? Painter ran REB back when Jund was the top deck!

Not even Elves anymore. People (including myself) have basically given up on the deck in the current metagame. Miracles, Omnitell and Grixis Delver (which swarms with tokens)? No thanks. Sticking with Storm for now.

Carsten Kotter wrote an insightful article a week or so ago which suggests otherwise. There is a discussion here.

Ok, fine, but you then have to admit that the issues people have with the card are in fact not to do with it's penetration as they are to do with why the card has such penetration.

Some people are making the claim that BS's usage is sufficient cause for banning...

No, but 80% usage certainly is.

I challenge your figure. Some events are pushing this level of penetration, but others are as low as 65-70%. Regardless, obviously some folks share you opinion while others do not. But for most reasonable people, you can't just look at card usage, but must also look at the decks which use it.

For instance, if Show & Tell saw 80% usage, most everyone would consider that a problem because S&T is a narrow card which supports a very limited range of decks/styles. If S&T saw (sustained) 30-40% usage I think even this would be too much for most of us.

Brainstorm supports a more varied spread of archetypes. Midrange, tempo, storm combo, 2-card combo, graveyard combo, and control. Brainstorm can be found in anything from aggressive decks like U/R Delver to decks with little or no creatures like ANT and Miracles. This is why some of us are very tolerant of such high usage.

I think this point is completely lost on most Brainstorm haters. Some go so far as to pretend that Miracles and Omnitell are essentially the same deck! I understand that some people have a problem with too much blue or too many cantrips; but sometimes I think such people have absolutely no understanding of why other don't.

Evaluate the card, not decks.

Automatic DQ if you run brainstorm without 56 other cards. Cards don't exist in a vacuum.

Usage reflects power level.

Usage is also determined by versatility. Cantrips are the most versatile non-land cards in Legacy. Cards of equal power which are less versatile are bound to see less play.

Usage reflects power level. You sit down to make a legacy deck and if you aren't playing that card you are handicapping yourself severely. Yes elves is competitive, lands is competitive, those are straw men.

I don't think you know what a straw-man means, but you are certainly contradicting yourself!

If you sit down to put together a Legacy deck, you are not handicapping yourself to forego Brainstorm - just narrowing your options to a smaller selection of competitive decks. You can only play one deck per event, so choosing a non-brainstorm deck doesn't actually handicap you at all.

Burn is really more of a combo deck that wins the game by casting a spell 7 times, sort of like a Storm deck but over multiple turns.

Spell based =/= combo, any more than creature based = aggro (aka, Elves, Dredge).

The spells in storm actually depend on each other to function as intended. In this way, they combine. See what I did? The spells in Burn are as independent as the creatures in Zoo.

Tier 1 Modern decks: Grixis Control, Jund, Merfolk, Burn, Affinity, Grixis Twin, UR Twin. Tier 2 Modern decks: RUG Twin, Elves, Tron, Junk, Junk Company, Grixis Delver, Zoo, Scapeshift, Amulet Bloom, Grishoalbrand, Infect.

If we count tier two deck, Legacy has Burn, Affinity, and Merfolk - all linear aggro - and has Modern beat hands-down.

Looking at tier one Modern decks, I see three aggro decks, one control deck, one midranged deck and two variations of the same combo. I stand by what I said.