All B/R update speculation.

[CorpT]

More data:

Decks playing at least 1% of the color from SCG database:

01-02-11 - 05-15-11

White: 128
Green: 145
Red: 88
Blue: 182
Black: 115

White: 50%
Green: 57%
Red: 34%
Blue: 71%
Black: 45%

05-22-11 - Present

White: 119
Green: 124
Red: 92
Blue: 187
Black: 109

White: 51%
Green: 53%
Red: 39%
Blue: 80%
Black: 46%

[Tombstalker]

I think I'll stop reading in this point

Lolz then you missed a damn good paraphrase at the end.

Really, legacy is not the format in which we start every deck with "add all the power X cards we have, continue from there".

Actually it really is. Looking at TC decks, it seems thats the entire point. Lets not just evaluate blue cards though, how about Aether Vial or Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant or Swords to Plowshares or Life from the Loam or Lightning Bolt and so on and so forth. Its exactly the reason. Pick your colors, start with the best cards of those colors. Whats wrong with that?

Edit: CorpT- actually thats not as bad as I thought it would be honestly although I know those numbers will ebb and flow slightly. If anything it shows that Red needs some serious love.

[Lancer]

Better have a source to back that claim up, son. Where have they said that anything at all will be banned?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/newre...eply&p=7295458

Forsythe:

... it's just way worse than we thought for that format, and I imagine we're gonna talk about banning it when the next thing (ban update) comes around...

[CorpT]

Edit: CorpT- actually thats not as bad as I thought it would be honestly although I know those numbers will ebb and flow slightly. If anything it shows that Red needs some serious love.

What's interesting is that it doesn't look like Blue has replaced colors in decks. It's just been added to everything. Frankly, 80% is pretty high for a color to be represented.
To put it in perspective, Artifacts were ran in 156 decks in the same period Blue was run in 187 decks. That should mean something.

[Draener]

Basically, most decks that could added mental misstep, did? Interrrrresting. Here's a question... if a ton of decks only played blue for 8 cards ( brainstorm and misstep ) would that be considered broken by most of you?

[CorpT]

More data. Regarding ebbs and flows. These were long sample sizes. The 2009 data is very small, so big grains of salt there.

By year: 2009 2010 2011
White: 45% 56% 50%
Green: 72% 62% 55%
Red: 55% 36% 37%
Blue: 62% 67% 75%
Black: 39% 43% 46%

2011:
White: 50%
Green: 55%
Red: 37%
Blue: 75%
Black: 46%

2010:
White: 56%
Green: 62%
Red: 36%
Blue: 67%
Black: 43%

2009:
White: 45%
Green: 72%
Red: 55%
Blue: 62%
Black: 39%

2011:
White: 247
Green: 269
Red: 180
Blue: 369
Black: 224
Total: 491

2010:
White: 166
Green: 184
Red: 105
Blue: 197
Black: 126

2009:
White: 44
Green: 70
Red: 53
Blue: 60
Black: 38
Total: 97

[ThoSha]

The funny thing about it is, that everyone only jumps on the misstep hatetrain instead of thinking for themselves what the latest block brought for goodies in their colors. And even if its not in their colors, many insane things came out of it.
Merfolk for me is the dumbest deck i've ever seen in magic history, and now it got a 1cmc removal that can be even paid with a mutavault. Nobody cries about how nasty that is. Or when we look to white, Apostles Blessing is pretty good either.
The problem with the legacy community is, that it is narrow minded.
Someone says a card is busted, everyone repeats that opinion without thinking at all. Thats why blue in general is so hyped, thats why Force of will was hyped and now the
same happens to MM.

If Mental Misstep gets banned, i will be the last one to complain, but this whole drama i read in here over and over is making me sick.

[Gheizen64]

Was Goblin that much played during 2009? How come those numbers for red are so high compared to 2010? I've got a bit of a sketchy memory here.
Green dropping in 2011 is probably because of the ability for control deck to go for SFM as a cheap win condition instead of going bant like everyone did before.

Also seems like blue is just increasing regularly, for many a sign that the format is reaching maturity.

[Richard Cheese]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/newre...eply&p=7295458

Forsythe:

... it's just way worse than we thought for that format, and I imagine we're gonna talk about banning it when the next thing (ban update) comes around...

Well I'll be damned. I really didn't think it was that bad, just kinda brainless.

Also seems like blue is just increasing regularly, for many a sign that the format is reaching maturity.

I take issue with this train of thought though. If the idea of a format reaching maturity is either:

A. Everyone starts every decklist with the same X cards, then adds one of a handful of win conditions (a.k.a. Vintage)
and/or
B. Everyone gravitates to one of 2-3 well-known archetypes that dominate the field (a.k.a. Standard)

Then I don't want the format to mature. The whole thing that's great about Legacy compared to other formats is that you can go to a 7-round event and face off against 7 different decks. It makes sideboarding and deckbuilding way more interesting, and for me is really the only thing keeping the game fun. I guess there are plenty of people that play to win and not for fun, but to me that's what Standard is for. Legacy should stay the unruly teenager of formats.

[Lancer]

The funny thing about it is, that everyone only jumps on the misstep hatetrain instead of thinking for themselves what the latest block brought for goodies in their colors. And even if its not in their colors, many insane things came out of it.
Merfolk for me is the dumbest deck i've ever seen in magic history, and now it got a 1cmc removal that can be even paid with a mutavault. Nobody cries about how nasty that is. Or when we look to white, Apostles Blessing is pretty good either.
The problem with the legacy community is, that it is narrow minded.
Someone says a card is busted, everyone repeats that opinion without thinking at all. Thats why blue in general is so hyped, thats why Force of will was hyped and now the
same happens to MM.

If Mental Misstep gets banned, i will be the last one to complain, but this whole drama i read in here over and over is making me sick.

The truth is nobody likes their first spell hit by a counterspell and they cry about it and refuse to adopt. (Not everybody but a very good number of players)

[majikal]

Well here's hoping they talk about it and leave it alone. I hate having to play FoW in aggro-control, and Misstep lets me get away with that. Funny though. This will be the first counterspell that has ever been banned in an eternal format (Modern doesn't count) apart from Mana Drain, and that just seems wrong.

[CorpT]

The problem with the legacy community is, that it is narrow minded.
Someone says a card is busted, everyone repeats that opinion without thinking at all. Thats why blue in general is so hyped, thats why Force of will was hyped and now the
same happens to MM.

It's not "narrow minded" to want to win. If I look at these numbers, it is clear Blue playing decks have higher penetration to the Top 16 than decks without Blue. Why should I not play a deck with Blue? Maybe that's a self-fulfilling prophecy, but does it matter?

[CorpT]

Want to see something scary?

White : 523 57%
Green : 202 22%
Red: 363 40%
Blue: 634 69%
Black: 198 22%
916
That's similar data for Standard 04-01-11 - 07-01-11 aka Jace/SFM Standard.

And post-ban:

White 211 45%
Green 115 24%
Red 198 42%
Blue 293 62%
Black 107 23%
474

[majikal]

Somebody needs to be fired if they keep fucking up and having to ban things, IMO. I'd start with Tom Lapille.

[(nameless one)]

Somebody needs to be fired if they keep fucking up and having to ban things, IMO. I'd start with Tom Lapille.

Why? I would love to see more Great Sable Stags

[Prkchpsndwiches]

Well I'll be damned. I really didn't think it was that bad, just kinda brainless.



I take issue with this train of thought though. If the idea of a format reaching maturity is either:

A. Everyone starts every decklist with the same X cards, then adds one of a handful of win conditions (a.k.a. Vintage)
and/or
B. Everyone gravitates to one of 2-3 well-known archetypes that dominate the field (a.k.a. Standard)

Then I don't want the format to mature. The whole thing that's great about Legacy compared to other formats is that you can go to a 7-round event and face off against 7 different decks. It makes sideboarding and deckbuilding way more interesting, and for me is really the only thing keeping the game fun. I guess there are plenty of people that play to win and not for fun, but to me that's what Standard is for. Legacy should stay the unruly teenager of formats.

-Metalworker Mud
-Aggro Mud
-Stax
-Dredge
-Madness
-Gush Storm
-Bob Control
-Bob/Gush Control
-Gush/Cobra Control
-GW Hatebears
-GWU Fish
-Aether Vial Control aka Wizards
-Minus 6
-Turbo Tezz
-Oath


I'll admit there are is a lot of overlap in vintage, but it is far from what you stated in "A". Currently, it is a very diverse field at the moment.

[Rune]

The truth is nobody likes their first spell hit by a counterspell and they cry about it and refuse to adopt.

I see this line of thought all the time, and so it's incredibly annoying to be subjected to this child logic. Here's the deal: If someone complains about a card, it does NOT necessarily mean he/she is unable to beat the card or the decks it's used in.

Since you label me as a cry baby who can't beat MM, I'll have to carefully explain where my criticism of MM is coming from. I have mostly played various blue aggro-control in Legacy over the years and generally believe this to be the best archetype, although I have changed deck when there was an obvious best deck (ANT, Survival, Spiral Tide, etc). I win consistently and have (had?) a high rating. Even if Misstep boosts the decks I like the most, I still hated it from the moment I saw it spoiled. I won't repeat myself as to why I hate it, because that's getting too tiring. The reason I want it gone is for the health of the format's sake, not because I keep running Lackey into it...

Anyway, I kind of regret selling 80% of my Legacy staples now that we know MM is likely to be banned. Not in a million years would I have thought they would make the correct decision. I was pretty sure the format would only keep degenerating into more and more blue mirror matches until everyone got too sick and tired of it and SCG just switched its sunday format to Modern, but now it looks like Legacy isn't going down in flames after all.

[Koby]

-Metalworker Mud Shop Combo
-Shop Aggro Mud
-Stax Shop
-Bazaar Dredge
-Bazaar Madness
-Gush Storm
-Bob Control Gush
-Bob/Gush Control
-Gush/Cobra Control
-GW Hatebears Fish
-GWU Fish Fish
-Aether Vial Control aka Wizards Fish
-Minus 6 Dragon
-Turbo Tezz Drain
-Oath

Fixed that for you. There's only 4 archetypes in Vintage*. The win condition is a formality. Everything else is about 40-50 cards overlap with one of the existing four.

* - Blue, Bazaar, Workshop, Oath

[Gheizen64]

I see this line of thought all the time, and so it's incredibly annoying to be subjected to this child logic. Here's the deal: If someone complains about a card, it does NOT necessarily mean he/she is unable to beat the card or the decks it's used in.

Since you label me as a cry baby who can't beat MM, I'll have to carefully explain where my criticism of MM is coming from. I have mostly played various blue aggro-control in Legacy over the years and generally believe this to be the best archetype, although I have changed deck when there was an obvious best deck (ANT, Survival, Spiral Tide, etc). I win consistently and have (had?) a high rating. Even if Misstep boosts the decks I like the most, I still hated it from the moment I saw it spoiled. I won't repeat myself as to why I hate it, because that's getting too tiring. The reason I want it gone is for the health of the format's sake, not because I keep running Lackey into it...

Anyway, I kind of regret selling 80% of my Legacy staples now that we know MM is likely to be banned. Not in a million years would I have thought they would make the correct decision. I was pretty sure the format would only keep degenerating into more and more blue mirror matches until everyone got too sick and tired of it and SCG just switched its sunday format to Modern, but now it looks like Legacy isn't going down in flames after all.

And why blue would be nerfed by the banning of what basically is a colorless card? Seriously. If anything this should make people reflect on what are the real culprit for blue power in this format. MM ain't.

[Rizso]

Want to see something scary?

White : 523 57%
Green : 202 22%
Red: 363 40%
Blue: 634 69%
Black: 198 22%
916
That's similar data for Standard 04-01-11 - 07-01-11 aka Jace/SFM Standard.

And post-ban:

White 211 45%
Green 115 24%
Red 198 42%
Blue 293 62%
Black 107 23%
474

3 cards for that does that. Squadron hawk, Preordain and Sword of Feast and Famine. Even after the ban Cawblade is still one of the best decks in the format. Outside of Ramp green is quite weak, Black got vampires and UB control, Red got combo and aggro. All red combos are ofc with Preordains. Red aggro have a huge up hill battle against an Uncommon card that pretty much turns the match alone in Timely Reinforcement. As that wasnt enought The formats best removal can be played in every deck.
Hi Dismember. If you arent a Titan or more insane Consecrated Sphinx you are out of luck.

Also its quite easy to splash blue into decks in standard with preordains, Awesome duals (that can be monsters to boot) and mana fix.
Almost forgot to mention all the clones in standard that is evolving arround winning 6 dropp titans, Phyrexian Metamorph and Phantasmal Image are just insane creatures when they can clone 6/6 creatures with CIP effects or gaming winning effects like draw 2 cards everytime your opponent draws a card!

Edit: CorpT- actually thats not as bad as I thought it would be honestly although I know those numbers will ebb and flow slightly. If anything it shows that Red needs some serious love.

Dont forget at that peroid alot more mono red decks where played in form of Goblins, dragonstompy, and charbelcher. Decks we dont really see that often anymore at least not the 2 later ones. Red was at 55% before in 2009. Red today is mostly jsut for burn, blasts, grudge and lavamancer, So not really strange red is falling down.