All B/R update speculation.

[iatee]

More bullshit. Brainstorm vs. belcher only has text on the play.

Brainstorm isn't important because of its text in that particular match-up, it's important because it allows blue decks to maindeck a lot of free/one mana interaction w/ much less downside, as the cards can be brainstormed away once they lose their value or in a bad matchup.

[Megadeus]

People saying unban balance. And I wonder why this thread isn't taken seriously

[Dark Ritual]

T1 decks are high variance enough that they are unfavored in long tournaments regardless. They're never going to be a good choice for good players because you completely give up the ability to outplay your opponent and put your fate in god's hands.

Also your predicted metashift w/ more discard makes up a little for the fewer FoWs.

Sounds like you've never played spanish inquisition or belcher. If by outplay you mean cantrip sure they can't cantrip like most decks do via ponder/brainstorm/SDT but the notion that they can't outplay an opponent is absurd. You just don't know how to do so yourself.

You know what matters against RG belcher? Having force in your opener on the draw AND on the play. Keeping a hand because it has brainstorm/ponder to look for a force of will is laughably bad and is going to reduce your life total to -30 before the game starts. Daze can also be piss poor against RG belcher. Oh hey there spirit guide thanks for paying for daze and having it not matter when I belch/empty/wish for empty anyways. People also don't play pierce, daze, snare, flusterstorm, etc. etc. because of belcher they do so because they're good in a lot of matchups granted you sometimes want to brainstorm them away but at worst force of will exiles them to counter a spell. There's also this great thing called sideboarding and it's suggested that you use it to make your deck better against deck X in games 2 and 3. People cut spell pierce and such against decks they're bad against like miracles usually doesn't care about spell pierce as it intends to go long to the point that pierce is just dead.

Dig is a busted magic card and should be banned. Like Bruizar said about it's relation to D7's it compares favorably as D7's are symmetrical. Dig is anything but. Dig in conjunction with yawg will can sometimes weaken it but at the same time you're looking 7 cards deep and should likely be fine as a result because 7 cards is a lot.

If anyone says or thinks they know what legacy would look like if brainstorm was banned they're lying. No one knows as it would flip the format on its head, literally. Open to speculation but no one definitively knows. I just suspect ponder would be the number 1 card in legacy then but we'll never know in all likelihood.

[iatee]

Yes thanks for sharing your notes, now the world finally knows the strategy 'mull to force of will against mindless t1 combo decks'. Dunno what we would do without these decks creating that deep and intricate gameplay for the format.

[Megadeus]

The point is that your argument that a brainstorm ban somehow helps fragile combo decks is completely wrong

[iatee]

That was never my argument, that came from Secretly.A.Bee's post. My argument was 'Even if that is true it doesn't matter, just ban high-variance non-interactive t1 decks too, they're basically a virus for the format anyway.'

[iatee]

Though:
- brainstorm makes blue decks more consistent than anything else
-> brainstorm gone almost certainly means the blue deck % decreases by some amount greater than 0
-> fewer blue decks means fewer Force of Wills floating around.

Brainstorm doesn't have to be 'good vs belcher' to be good vs belcher.

[Blastoderm]

"But then there would be too many glass cannon decks" is a bad argument because most of those decks can (and should, in my opinion) be also banned anyway. Belcher-style combo decks don't bring anything positive to the format. Magic doesn't need people showing up to a tournament w/ no purpose beyond adding variance to the results.

Belcher gives me joy, how is that not positive?

[iatee]

Well, uninteractive t1 losses bring misery to the other guy and the net effect is probably more misery than happiness since you ruined someone's tournament but have almost no chance of winning yourself. So you get some troll-lolz, great, you probably could have done that by tripping an old lady or something.

[nedleeds]

That was never my argument, that came from Secretly.A.Bee's post.

Sorry to misattribute, I saw his text when you quoted him. I've had him blocked for years.

[nedleeds]

Brainstorm doesn't have to be 'good vs belcher' to be good vs belcher.

Being 'good vs. belcher' isn't a criteria for remaining banned or unbanned. Force is good vs. belcher, is a powerful card, but is balanced by the card disadvantage and deck building constraints.

[Quasim0ff]

Being 'good vs. belcher' isn't a criteria for remaining banned or unbanned. Force is good vs. belcher, is a powerful card, but is balanced by the card disadvantage and deck building constraints.

But it should be.

[nedleeds]

But it should be.

Great. Long live Mindbreak Trap.

[iatee]

Being 'good vs. belcher' isn't a criteria for remaining banned or unbanned. Force is good vs. belcher, is a powerful card, but is balanced by the card disadvantage and deck building constraints.

The deck building constraints is part of the bigger problem - you can't splash force if you want the effect, so you have to play a lot of blue cards. Which end up being the same blue cards everyone else plays. DTT now allows these decks to make up for the card disadvantage too. So as long as DTT is unbanned Force is 'even more powerful' - you'll make up for that early 2 for 1 in a few turns.

Realistically I don't see brainstorm ever being banned at this point, purely due to the backlash. People like the decks they own, hate change and are bad at envisioning a better format. But DTT is also obviously busted, even less interesting a card than brainstorm, and has created a t1 deck that is both super powerful and super boring to play w/ or against (omni.) If wizards cares at all about legacy banning DTT is the least they can do. Nobody's gonna quit over that. I think even the omni players know that their good times can't last forever.

[bakofried]

Well, uninteractive t1 losses bring misery to the other guy and the net effect is probably more misery than happiness since you ruined someone's tournament but have almost no chance of winning yourself. So you get some troll-lolz, great, you probably could have done that by tripping an old lady or something.

I don't know what legacy scene you're at, but Belcher makes me chuckle - and I exclusively play decks that get shit on by Belcher. Most legacy players I know don't get pissed seeing Belcher do well, and if they get that pairing they take it in good grace.

[iatee]

I mean it depends on the stakes of the tournament. I do think that legacy is generally less spike-y than other formats, probably cause there's relatively little on the line and the playerbase is a little older. But in a serious tournament, nobody is going to be happy when they lose a match without playing a card. So there's a big difference between playing belcher at your local event one night to troll your friends and showing up to GP Seattle with it.

[nedleeds]

The deck building constraints is part of the bigger problem - you can't splash force if you want the effect, so you have to play a lot of blue cards. Which end up being the same blue cards everyone else plays. DTT now allows these decks to make up for the card disadvantage too. So as long as DTT is unbanned Force is 'even more powerful' - you'll make up for that early 2 for 1 in a few turns.

Realistically I don't see brainstorm ever being banned at this point, purely due to the backlash. People like the decks they own, hate change and are bad at envisioning a better format. But DTT is also obviously busted, even less interesting a card than brainstorm, and has created a t1 deck that is both super powerful and super boring to play w/ or against (omni.) If wizards cares at all about legacy banning DTT is the least they can do. Nobody's gonna quit over that. I think even the omni players know that their good times can't last forever.

I don't think in terms of _______ players, or ______ players. There are just cards and the card pool. One card out paces the other by double and is way better and way more of an offender in creating a 56 card format.

[Quasim0ff]

I don't think in terms of _______ players, or ______ players. There are just cards and the card pool. One card out paces the other by double and is way better and way more of an offender in creating a 56 card format.

Yes, brainstorm is everywhere. This does have the function, that the format is actually broader than without brainstorm, as it's playable in everything [wanting that effect]. No other card has that quality.

[iatee]

I don't think in terms of _______ players, or ______ players. There are just cards and the card pool. One card out paces the other by double and is way better and way more of an offender in creating a 56 card format.

I mean you don't have to convince me there. You just have to convince the people with foil japanese brainstorms and everyone else who feels super attached to their current brainstorm deck.

[nedleeds]

I have signed Korean Oaths and a double signed beta Black Lotus. Let's unban them. Because, attachment.