Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Bold part is not true. Between Survival ban and NPH release there were more viable decks out there as could be seen from both SCG Open results and tournaments in Europe.Originally Posted by Rizso
Sounds familiar
I am also pretty convinced that MM will be banned, even if its the cards that makes less sense.
In all honesty, the Formats problem is mostly Brainstorm (maybe S&T, but ppl still dont realize how broken Hive Mind in the Hands of a good player is). Brainstorm is just completely nuts (and I have to admit that I definetly took advantage from that fact for maybe the last 3/4 year in nearly any tournament) and definetly is in terms of powerlevel and its effect on games wideley underestimated. A lot of this has already been discussed ad nauseum, but I think its time to at least give those players credit which are honest enough, for the health of the format, to simply say it out loud that this is the card that keeps Legacy away from beeing THE format.
The "argument" I heard from most players is that Brainstorm is such a fun card to play with and that it isnt as good as people think it is, simply because a whole lot of people play a whole lot of awkward Brainstorms.
On the one hand, I heard some players complain not about the fact that Brainstorm is busted, but about the way the format is going to look like without Brainstorm. Thousands of players would snap-sign a contract with "Brainstorm or quit Legacy" just because they fear that the chaos would break out and a meta dominated by Belcher, Zoo and Merfolk would be the consequence of banning it. On the other hand a lot of players arent willing to change anything with the format because they play it since its beginning and a banning would keep them away from playing with and playing against a whole lot of decks that they announced to be the "essence of legacy". The reason they play the format is, understandable but also questionable, just because those cards/decks do exist.
Imagine ANT/DDFT/TES, nearly all (aggro)controllish decks and 2 card combo decks without Brainstorm. For quite some time I would have shook my head and maybe reacted the same way as people now respond to the "unbounded cheek" of even talking about banning Brainstorm. Well, I can just recommend to throw all that nostalgic crap over board, taking a look at a fresh new Legacy with a whole lot of opportunities and chances, even if this wont might happen, due to Wizards fear of players going nuts all around the world.
But back to mistep:
Some designers already said that they think it was a mistake and they completely underestimated the card in general, plus some other well-known american players (like AJ Sacher) also already complained about the card, and saying that it is definetly bad for the formats health (even if they play MM for obvious reasons) and IMO the card had its expiration date on it since it was printed, even if its the wrong decision in the long end.
I also see no reason for having cards like earthcraft on the banned-list, while S&T is legal, but thats another story.
One question in general: When is the new B/R announcement? Before or after GP Amsterdam?
Greetings
In response...Hypothek!
One month before, since B/R list update is sep 20th and GP is oct 22nd
This is convenient, the DTB math is made up so that there are 5~10 DTBs, how is this an indicator?
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
I think MM should be banned. Not because it reduces power of staples like SDT, Brainstorm, AEther Vial, STP, Lackey etc. but more because of the collateral damage done to less played decks that rely on 1cc utility spells to set up.
Fixed.
Seriously, this is legacy, complaining about a T1 counter when you have to factor things like a T3 Emrakul or Progenitus seems stupid to me. MM isn't the cause of "pet" decks not being viable, pet decks being pet decks is the cause for them not being viable.
This argument is being done again and again and proven false again and again. I wonder who'll get tired first:
@rockstar: Thank you very much! I apprecieate.
@Gheizen: This is totally correct. Mental Mistep isnt causing any problems on its own, even if the decks it is played in are heavily favoured by it, in opposite to the ones it hurted the most (sounds kinda confusing, but basically, the decks where it fits the most are U-based, others still can "abuse" MM, but are definetly downgraded in front of eachother).
Hopefully they ban Brainstorm, as well as S&T and unban Earth Craft.
PS: I have not enough experience with the card "Gush" itself to make competent statements about how broken or healthy the card would be for the format without the existence of Brainstorm. Hope someone can make a competent statement here, I am pretty interested.
Thanks in advance
In response...Hypothek!
Gush is horrible. There's no reason to not run Gush if you run islands, and there's no reason to not run Islands if there's gush in the format. Welcome to Blue.format if Gush get ever unbanned. There are still cards like Mindtwist, Tax, Craft and Vise that would probably see 0 play even if unbanned, i don't see why WotC would even consider a card that would make blue even stronger.
Mindtwist would see play if you ask me.
False analogy.
Color Pie doesnt matter as much in legacy as it does in standard. Legacy you can splash anything for anything, in standard that doesnt belong.Sounds familiar
It's so funny that my signature stands true forever and I can repeat the same phrases over and over again:
Ban Brainstorm and Misstep; let Combo rape the format. I Gara-damn-te you we have the same complaints about cards like LED Zoon after. Problem is that people don't want to metagame. Goblin players still run near no warren instigators but Gang-bang Commander and dare to complain about misstep?! 2 Zoo players recently complained about Reanimator in their meta but refused to run hate maindeck. BUT ... those are the people arguing here and elsewhere that Vial/putrid Imp/Nacatl/Lackey/etc. should be handled by metagaming not the all-in-one-solution misstep!
Selective perseption or ignorance? I dunno.
Post-Survival/PRE-misstep where Aggro was well positioned against countertop and near drove it out of legacy (Countertops metagamed firespout and lavamancer btw), TES and Show&Tell where Aggros nightmare and we had the same discussion about LED and S&T being sooooo unfair to Goblins and Pet-decks.
Misstep did not kill Zoo or Aggro as Maverick shows in Europe. The reason you see so much blue in SCG's Events is pure lazyness and netdecking. Gerry T. (and others of corse) plays a deck and the next Event 20% of the field run the same. Rinse and repeat. If meerfolk, stoneblade, NO RUG and Zoo make 70+% of a meta I would not wonder if the T8 mirror that being damn blue.
My advise: Don't build decks with 8 essential One-drops w/o protection and curse the world if they won't stick. (lavamancer, Kurs Ape, nacatl, loam Lion, goblin guide, Lightning bolt, chain lightning work perfect in weenie Zoo; 4 missteps vs. 28 One-drops is fair)
My prediction:
1. banning misstep timewalks blue back to countertop, loosing vs. meerfolk/Zoo. Those Loose to combo and people cry for LED to be banned (we had that already)
2. Banning Brainstom makes blue unable to dig for certain defensive cards. With all the narrow counters in legacy (Balance, snare, misstep) a pure gambling for the right configuration. What I've learned from Vintage on the topic Brainstorm is that stack interaction aside from "I counter your spell" is removed because brainstorm is the ONLY card in legacy that let you change configuration on the stack (Ponder, preordain are sorceries and instant draw is expensive, resticted or Gush). Without Brainstorm you simply topdeck. Blue needs the right cards in the right situation while Zoo don't care what creature they draw
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Even without brainstorm gush still says 0: counter target wasteland add UU and Draw 4 cards.I have not enough experience with the card "Gush" itself to make competent statements about how broken or healthy the card would be for the format without the existence of Brainstorm. Hope someone can make a competent statement here, I am pretty interested.
Thanks in advance
Re: format diversity, what do people think banning MMS will do for NO RUG? Its already a pretty dominant DTB and it seems to me that NO RUG (or any deck that plays GSZ and/or Hierarch) will just become more dominant, same with vial decks, specifically merfolk. In fact all the current DTBs barring blade control stand to benefit greatly from the banning. Conversely decks like TES could care less about the existence of MMS. It seems this goes against the desired result of banning MMS.
If I am mistaken great but what decks do you really think will suddenly become viable without this counterspell?
There really needs to be a word for being naive in reverse. The tenency to replace critical thought with uncritical faux-skepticism.
Also, really? You actually think combo would be what would be helped by Brainstorm being banned? Maybe you can name me a combo deck that doesn't run the card.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
It's not that simple. The whole dynamics of the format changes. Suddenly seeing a turn 1 Nacatl on the draw on the other side of the table is actually kinda scary.
I, as a combo player, would love to see MM go. Being sure that Seize/Duress is always hitting a FoW or Spellpierce is awesome.
Merfolk's Vial doesn't get countered anymore, but in game where they don't get it they can't tap out recklessly anymore. They have to choose between attacking with Mutavault or leaving Spellpierce up, etc.
This is more of a problem with LED than a lack of a problem with MM or Brainstorm.
This is what happens when a format that has never had a real defined meta develops one. The players of this format just don't know what to do. This is why survival got banned, there were real strategies to beat those decks but the general public was so mystified that they couldn't beat it with the exact same shit they had been playing that they demanded a ban. They got it and it un-defined the meta for a while. Now we have one again and guess what, the calls for bans are back.
I can tell you combo needs brainstorm a lot less than control.
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To me it's kinda important, that non-hive mind-combo is very rare today. In some way Brainstorm, Misstep and Counterbalance (won't Talk about FoW) negate the raw power of LED. Is that good or not to have cards that handle auch raw power?
People argue against Dismember in the same style, point on the phrexian mana. No one would complain about Dismember costing 1B. The question is the following: is 2 life equal a mana or even a landdrop? Snuff Out disagrees and Fastbond too. Choose your truth.
Is countering a vial, Nacatl, etc worth the cost? Doubt it if you counter a preordain but have none if you hit Vial or reanimate ... Damn I would even pay 5 life! Considering this ... shouldn't we think about the powerlevel of the recent One-drops too before judgeing their solution?
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Brainstorm gone would neuter combo as much if not more than control. Not being able to hide bombs from discard is huge and i'd say more important for combo, especially if it's of the type "1 bomb and win" like AnT, SpiralTide and SnT.
Your point 2 is just false. Banning Brainstorm would not make blue unable to dig for defensive cards in any shape, way or form. The game would not be more of a gamble in any way. If anything, people would rely less on that Brainstorm on T1 to keep hands with one hand and shuffle back the garbage and play a bit more carefully.
I hate to repeat the obvious, but since you're deliberatingly omitting it, blue is actually the color of library manipulation and most decks already play Ponder. Then there's Preordain, and then, if you want, Portent and Opt. For decks that like to shuffle cards back like NO variants, there's See Beyond. Yes, that's actually a decent card that doesn't see play in Legacy (while does a little in Vintage) because brainstorm exist.
The second part of your point is actually ignoring that there are instant card selection spells in magic aside Brainstorm, for example Top, and there's also the false analogy that Brainstorm is the thing that make players interact. Actually, in the case you described, Brainstorm isn't interacting, it's digging for answers. Casting the dig spell before the threat spell or in response of it on the stack doesn't change the number of cards you can dig, but only force you to make your choice sooner, and this make conditional answers (like Daze and MM) worse. But stay assured the biggest changes here are that discard would become actually relevant and that blue would lose a way to ancestral in the midgame (before Jace). Topdecking or such stupid things aren't what would change with Brainstorm gone. Also, look at JTMS to see how "bad" sorcery library manipulation is and how much blue "topdeck" in those conditions.
Your assertions about Zoo are also false, since Zoo (Aggro in general) actually care a lot about its draws, if he draws creature in late game is actually usually in a bad position since control play Batterskulls and Goyfs and planeswalkers that bounce or kill creatures (the new Liliana is also an house). There's a reason burn in those decks is called "reach". And again, there's a reason Sylvan Library is one of the strongest card in Zoo or if Zoo evolved in variants like Big Zoo. Because "dumb creatures that swing" aren't actually everything Aggro is about. Your whole argument is a big generalization of ideas (Brainstorm buff blue, and as such nerf combo: false, combo is as blue as control is) people (people cry for misstep and then will cry for LED: false, people say MM isn't the right thing to ban since MM isn't the reason blue is everywhere. There are multiple reasons for this, obviously, the biggest one is probably Brainstorm, in alternative, the old Island proposition is still there), decks (Aggro decks are dumbs and don't care about what they draw: false, aggro does care as much as control, especially in the days where control have huge midgame bombs like Jace and Batterskull that seal the game extremely quickly) and to top it all, sarcastic remarks about supposedly "bad" deck builders.
Your pre-emptive attacks on everyone that don't have the same PoV as you have are also fascinating. We aren't actually debating about religion or any kind of dogma here. We're having arguments, and everyone can be in the wrong since an absolute truth doesn't exist (my argument, in case you missed it, and the argument for many beside me, is that MM isn't the culprit of Blue dominance and banning MM wouldn't actually achieve anything its detractor thinks it would achieve. Blue being able to run MM and other color not is a testament of the real problem here: the ability of blue to run conditional cards thanks to the ability to reshuffle cards back in with Brainstorm. I argue that with Brainstorm gone, MM would also see a decise decrease in play and the power relationship between archetypes would remain largely unchanged, however the relationship between colors would probably get slightly better. In particular, and i speak only for myself here, i think blue would lose a bit of its power while black and possibly green would be see the biggest benefit).
Keep your "my idea is better than yours" elsewhere along with your false analogies and with your categorization of people (i heard there's a word for that).
This is clearly not the case, but you can believe in whatever you want.
In a sports comparison, you can have a tourney where Barcelona fights Real Madrid to see which is the first, and all the rest just fights for the 3rd place, or you can have a balanced scenario where a lot more teams got a chance.
My opinion is that I prefer, and Legacy has always been, the second one. Barcelona vs Real Madrid can be held at Vintage tourneys already.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
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