All B/R update speculation.

[H]

You almost got me to care about Modern, Wizards, almost...

What are these people buying $60 Ancestral Visions going to do with them, really? If you deck is waiting 4 turns to draw some bad, slow cards, I'm pretty sure you will already be dead to Burn.

[iamajellydonut]

Can I buy your dazes?

Sure? Easiest recoup of losses ever.

[iamajellydonut]

You almost got me to care about Modern, Wizards, almost...

What are these people buying $60 Ancestral Visions going to do with them, really? If you deck is waiting 4 turns to draw some bad, slow cards, I'm pretty sure you will already be dead to Burn.

Just treat Modern like a joke and you'll do fine. I'm aiming to just go balls to the wall TITIs all over the format. I dunno about you.

Edit:
#doublepost #yolo

[ramanujan]

Price spikes are silly for the unbanned cards. They make no sense. Ancestral visions will not make a winning deck unless better cascade cards are printed. This is how value is destroyed. People pay too much for an unbanned card, cards don't get played, the value of the card plummets.

I bet ancestral visions is down to a 10 dollar card within 2 years.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Preach!

We've seen a couple of people try and argue for a Balance unban in this thread, says it all.

Yep, 2/3 of the legacy community wants balance unbanned...

B&R changes shouldn't be put to the vote. Magic players, on the whole, know fuck all about balancing a format. They seem to know only salt.

Magic players know more about balancing a format than non-magic players(although WotC plays magic they don't play legacy)

Golem... This is bullshit.

Exactly why WotC isn't fit to run the ban list.

[iamajellydonut]

I bet ancestral visions is down to a 10 dollar card within 2 years.

This would be surprising considering that it's been $20 for quite some time even without the inclusion of Modern legality.

The card is silly good. My memory is a bit foggy, but I remember Faeries being a tier 1 deck even without cascade, and I wouldn't be surprised to see control emerge as a big contender. Ancestral Recall is the single best card in the entire game. There are plenty of decks that would see four turns as a small price to pay. Not to mention that it'll give UR aggro some retarded staying power

[keys]

People like to draw cards. People like to play control and blue-based midrange. You can put 2 and 2 together.

Vision isn't going to live up to the hype exactly, but it is a good card and it will be a boost to these two archetypes.

Reid Duke is saying it's now the best card in Modern along with Snapcaster Mage. I think that's going too far but we'll see.

[Seraphix]

You almost got me to care about Modern, Wizards, almost...

What are these people buying $60 Ancestral Visions going to do with them, really? If you deck is waiting 4 turns to draw some bad, slow cards, I'm pretty sure you will already be dead to Burn.

This so much.

Access to Vision/Thopter-Sword coupled with Tron losing inevitability without Eye mean that maybe a Blue control deck can now be allowed to exist in Modern.

...Unfortunately, these glacial win-cons look comical in a format overrun with aggressive, linear strategies.

Much like with Bitterblossom, the ship for these cards to be effective has probably already sailed.

[H]

This so much.

Access to Vision/Thopter-Sword coupled with Tron losing inevitability without Eye mean that maybe a Blue control deck can now be allowed to exist in Modern.

...Unfortunately, these glacial win-cons look comical in a format overrun with aggressive, linear strategies.

Much like with Bitterblossom, the ship for these cards to be effective has probably already sailed.

Yeah, I mean, I accidentally gave away a Visions when I moved, because whatever. I bought the last one I needed like 2 months ago, because I felt like playing Shardless a bit. No way I'd pay that much money for the card, no way. I've owned Swords and Foundry playsets since the cards came out. I don't have the time for the energy to play with card prices, so luckily I already had these.

I'd love if there was an actual viable Control deck in Modern, I might even actually want to play the format. Neither of these things makes that come true though, it's all just too slow. If I have to play it, I'll probably still just play clown decks that I just throw together.

[ramanujan]

This would be surprising considering that it's been $20 for quite some time even without the inclusion of Modern legality.

The card is silly good. My memory is a bit foggy, but I remember Faeries being a tier 1 deck even without cascade, and I wouldn't be surprised to see control emerge as a big contender. Ancestral Recall is the single best card in the entire game. There are plenty of decks that would see four turns as a small price to pay. Not to mention that it'll give UR aggro some retarded staying power

A large reason of why it was $20 dollars for quite some time is because people were speculating that it could be unbanned in modern. It has some playability in legacy because in legacy you can play Shardless Agent. The 20 dollar price was more than half modern unbanning speculation, in my opinion, which I firmly believe was based on a faulty assumption that it would then be playable in modern.

I really don't think comparing Ancestral recall to Ancestral visions is remotely appropriate. I would rather play concentrate in most cases, and I would never consider playing concentrate.

As I said before, if they print more cascade spells, than I have faith that the card could be good to great. That is the one reason the card has any value to me. Time will tell who is right.

[tescrin]

We saw Ugin coming. That's good.

Unbans are good. Way to go WotC.

Restricting Lodestone!? Grumble right at ya. I don't own Vintage, but if I did, it'd be shops. Why? Because it's viable without P9. By continuing to restrict shops they're shoving what little "budget" potential there is I feel.

EDIT: This may mean an influx of Legacy Eldrazi players :D

[Ellomdian]

What are these people buying $60 Ancestral Visions going to do with them, really? If you deck is waiting 4 turns to draw some bad, slow cards, I'm pretty sure you will already be dead to Burn.

Probably the same thing people who over-payed for Bitterblossom's are doing with them. Occasionally playing them in the board of some decks, and in the main of fringe-y B/W Tokens strats. But this is mostly fueled by the same people who pay $50 to preorder a new card because they 'don't want to spend money when it spikes.'

Yep, 2/3 of the legacy community wants balance unbanned...

What?

Magic players know more about balancing a format than non-magic players(although WotC plays magic they don't play legacy)

Magic players seem to think they know how to 'Balance' a format. Magic players dream up incredibly shitty theoretical cards and don't seem to realize that the OP group is as vested in the commercial success of MtG as it is the environments themselves. Magic players have completely different goals when it comes to what they want out of a game, or a tournament, or a format. Magic Players are, as a group, terrifying short-sighted pack animals with herd mentality.

Exactly why WotC isn't fit to run the ban list.

You know, in the 20-ish years I have been playing and Judging, I'm pretty confident that I can count the number of truly bad/detrimental decisions that WotC has made in regards to card legality on one hand. And during that time, they've seen astronomical growth, both in player count and tournament attendance.

Statistically, WotC's approach to format construction over the last decade has fallen in line with their objectives for each one. Legacy and Vintage are typically very hands-off - the action in Vintage against Shops over the last year is actually pretty remarkable in context. Modern is a Curated format, so they are much more likely to take aggressive action in regards to recent tournament results to circumvent a loss of support from the community (and the community has come to expect that kind of action.) And Standard is a format that is Tested aggressively in the Development phase, so it's significantly rarer for any action to happen there.

[iatee]

I think it is also unfair that Wizards creates all new cards, which are obviously as impactful as the banlist. Players should vote on all new cards.

[iamajellydonut]

And during that time, they've seen astronomical growth, both in player count and tournament attendance.

This is true, but it has no correlation at all to bannings or unbannings. Also, it's worth pointing out that the overall number of changes to card legality doesn't exceed the metaphorical one hand by too much.

[Gheizen64]

Price spikes are silly for the unbanned cards. They make no sense. Ancestral visions will not make a winning deck unless better cascade cards are printed. This is how value is destroyed. People pay too much for an unbanned card, cards don't get played, the value of the card plummets.

I bet ancestral visions is down to a 10 dollar card within 2 years.

Bitterblossom spiked hard on unban, never got played, and never went down a single cent.

Welcome to the new age where everything is a speculation bubble because of globalized information.

[ramanujan]

Magic players seem to think they know how to 'Balance' a format. Magic players dream up incredibly shitty theoretical cards and don't seem to realize that the OP group is as vested in the commercial success of MtG as it is the environments themselves. Magic players have completely different goals when it comes to what they want out of a game, or a tournament, or a format. Magic Players are, as a group, terrifying short-sighted pack animals with herd mentality.

You know, in the 20-ish years I have been playing and Judging, I'm pretty confident that I can count the number of truly bad/detrimental decisions that WotC has made in regards to card legality on one hand. And during that time, they've seen astronomical growth, both in player count and tournament attendance.

Statistically, WotC's approach to format construction over the last decade has fallen in line with their objectives for each one. Legacy and Vintage are typically very hands-off - the action in Vintage against Shops over the last year is actually pretty remarkable in context. Modern is a Curated format, so they are much more likely to take aggressive action in regards to recent tournament results to circumvent a loss of support from the community (and the community has come to expect that kind of action.) And Standard is a format that is Tested aggressively in the Development phase, so it's significantly rarer for any action to happen there.

I agree with your post. Especially the part about terrifying short-sighted pack animals. That is the nature of teen and twenties men with something to prove, a bit of money, and an affinity for games like Mtg.

[Arsenal]

Also, price memory is a powerful thing. Some cards drop down to pre-spike levels, but many do not.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think it is also unfair that Wizards creates all new cards, which are obviously as impactful as the banlist. Players should vote on all new cards.

Normally I can tell, but some of the things you've said in the past make me unsure.

[iatee]

There was no [/s] at the end, so obviously I wasn't being sarcastic.

[alphastryk]

The problem with restricting Golem is that we still haven't finished adjusting to having Chalice restricted, and shops is a good balancing boogeyman to have.