All B/R update speculation.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Miracles is too dominant in higher levels of play but it is fine where I play. People play what they want and not what others think is the best deck or whatever. I think most people on here are overreacting because most people do most of their playing at the local FNM level where people play what they like. My legacy FNM is incredibly diverse with no more than 2 of the same deck being played in ~16 person tournaments. Am I the only one whose local meta is like this or do other people's metas look like big tournament top 8s? A miracle ban wouldn't really effect me because I don't play at big tournaments because my FNM tournaments are really good and it isn't worth it for me to travel and pay for a big tournament for equal fun I'd have at my LGC

Edit: What I would want in the format would be more unbans to change things up a little. But overall the format is great right now in my opinion

[Fox]

What if they printed a version of Grafdigger's that worked with exiled cards?

Miracles casts Terminus from hand, the card you are looking for is Uba Mask. The Miracle mechanic does not work if you cannot draw a card due to replacement effect; same thing with Omniscience requiring a card to be in hand to be cast without paying cost. The only competitive deck I know of that casts spells from exile is Food Chain and in the future, any deck that wants to use Misthollow Eldrazi 3-drop guy. Madness decks currently not competitive.

[Barook]

Aside from being 4 mana, I don't know how to feel about a card against a deck that runs 4x Brainstorm + multiple Jace for the awkward pseuso-Ancestrals and further library manipulation to decrease dead draws. While it can't use the miracle mechanic, it should be still good to go with Top in play.

[Fox]

Aside from being 4 mana, I don't know how to feel about a card against a deck that runs 4x Brainstorm + multiple Jace for the awkward pseuso-Ancestrals and further library manipulation to decrease dead draws. While it can't use the miracle mechanic, it should be still good to go with Top in play.

Oh ya, there's literally no way Uba Mask would ever work vs miracles. It's not with delve, and every draw 3 (while it would exile) is going to find Wear//Tear almost immediately. That's a lot of this issue with Counterbalance, your silver bullet (that doesn't really stop miracles from working) probably has to be a 2 card combo utilizing Boseju or Caverns. The reply was more about Grafdigger's Cage for exile not being a valid card idea to stop miracles.

[DarthVicious]

Miracles casts Terminus from hand, the card you are looking for is Uba Mask. The Miracle mechanic does not work if you cannot draw a card due to replacement effect; same thing with Omniscience requiring a card to be in hand to be cast without paying cost. The only competitive deck I know of that casts spells from exile is Food Chain and in the future, any deck that wants to use Misthollow Eldrazi 3-drop guy. Madness decks currently not competitive.

My bad, I thought it exiled the card with the miracle trigger, and you drew it if you didn't cast it.

What about a hatebear that said something like "If any player puts a spell on the stack without paying its mana cost, counter that spell unless its mana cost is paid."

[CutthroatCasual]

My bad, I thought it exiled the card with the miracle trigger, and you drew it if you didn't cast it.

What about a hatebear that said something like "If any player puts a spell on the stack without paying its mana cost, counter that spell unless its mana cost is paid."

We all wish for certain cards to exist. Doing so still adds nothing to the discussion.

[DarthVicious]

We all wish for certain cards to exist. Doing so still adds nothing to the discussion.

Neither does blatant trolling. At least I have a suggestion. *ahem*

I doubt that a ban would be necessary if a new card printed helped creature-based strategies against Miracles. If there were to be a ban, I guess I'd vote for Top, if only for the logistics reasons.
I wouldn't advocate a ban on Brainstorm, and I don't even own the card anymore. I don't even own a single blue card. Blue just isn't my style, like a drummer playing Guitar Hero.
Wizards has also stated in the past that they would rather print new cards and/or unban cards to deal with the boogeymen of the format than to ban cards. Banning is a last resort option for them, barring certain 'mistakes' like MM or Cruise.

[Stevestamopz]

Wizards has also stated in the past that they would rather print new cards and/or unban cards to deal with the boogeymen of the format than to ban cards. Banning is a last resort option for them, barring certain 'mistakes' like MM or Cruise.

Can we please not have this anymore? Abrupt Decay and Deathrite were printed to combat Miracles and what happened was basically the opposite as many other decks became worse/unplayable (e.g Goblins) while Miracles somehow got better. So what does Wotc do then? They print True Name, all hell breaks loose and they have to follow it up with Council's Judgment -an insanely boring card that Miracles gets to take advantage of more than any other deck- just to bridge the gap.

The solution to a fucked up foundation is not to haphazardly build further on top and hope it sorts itself out.

[MorphBerlin]

Miracles is too dominant in higher levels of play but it is fine where I play. People play what they want and not what others think is the best deck or whatever. I think most people on here are overreacting because most people do most of their playing at the local FNM level where people play what they like. My legacy FNM is incredibly diverse with no more than 2 of the same deck being played in ~16 person tournaments. Am I the only one whose local meta is like this or do other people's metas look like big tournament top 8s? A miracle ban wouldn't really effect me because I don't play at big tournaments because my FNM tournaments are really good and it isn't worth it for me to travel and pay for a big tournament for equal fun I'd have at my LGC

Edit: What I would want in the format would be more unbans to change things up a little. But overall the format is great right now in my opinion

What is the point of your post? Nobody cares about your LGS kitchen table meta and that you don't drive to big tournaments. If nobody plays Miracles there why do you care about the discussion?

[Fox]

Edit: What I would want in the format would be more unbans to change things up a little. But overall the format is great right now in my opinion

What @MorphBerlin said was perhaps a bit harsh if not true. What is probably more important is the quoted sentence above. Have you actually looked at the banned list for legacy? Aside from cards that will never be unbanned (dexterity, ante, conspiracy), you have:
-20 minute turn bans (Recruiter and Earthcraft)
-borderline cheating (Shahrazad, i.e. win game 1 and time out match post-board)
-absolute diversity killers (Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest)
-maybe it's ok, but the price is obscene bans (Mana Drain, Imperial Seal)
-the most broken cards ever printed (vintage staples, nonsense like Flash/Skullclamp)
-1-card combos (Hermit Druid)

Objectively the safest unbans without compromising quality of life (i.e. Earthcraft/Recruiter) or restrictive cost are in order are Mind Twist (no effect) followed by I don't know what will happen but: ??? maybe Balance, Hermit Druid, Time Vault (highly cost prohibitive, but effectively Counterbalance level degeneracy), Mind's Desire, Yawg Bargain, and however you want to rank the rest. This seems to be a recurrent theme with your posts though, thinking that Legacy banlist is like modern and that it is somehow littered with cards that are merely 'good' that are safe (or even healthy) to unban. I mean sure, you unban Survival you'll help fair decks....that will all be Survival decks now?

What exactly are your suggested "unbans" [plural, your words]? You already know what happens to legacy if you unban DTT or TC. There isn't exactly room on the legacy banlist to "change things up a little" without the format becoming overwhelmingly blue...at which point you're blue, the most egregious forms of combo, or some colorless stompy/prison variant - none of which care a thing about a card at such a low power level as Terminus (from those three perspectives, see also Terminus' effect in vintage).

Ban Terminus and more unbans that will shake up legacy in a good way are not really reconcilable viewpoints - which is it man? If you want Terminus out and Survival in, let's hear it...otherwise, no one really knows what you're talking about. There is a very recent trend of fixing most of the cards you could be talking about already underway (Dark Petition~DT, Cryptolith Rite~Earthcraft, Evolutionary Leap~Survival, Tragic Arrogance~Balance, Pore Over the Pages~Frantic Search).

Edit: Yep Hermit Druid, thanks for correction @Bignasty197

[Bignasty197]

I think you mean Hermit Druid. Not Heritage Druid.

[Amon Amarth]

What @MorphBerlin said was perhaps a bit harsh if not true. What is probably more important is the quoted sentence above. Have you actually looked at the banned list for legacy? Aside from cards that will never be unbanned (dexterity, ante, conspiracy), you have:
-20 minute turn bans (Recruiter and Earthcraft)
-borderline cheating (Shahrazad, i.e. win game 1 and time out match post-board)
-absolute diversity killers (Mental Misstep and Survival of the Fittest)
-maybe it's ok, but the price is obscene bans (Mana Drain, Imperial Seal)
-the most broken cards ever printed (vintage staples, nonsense like Flash/Skullclamp)
-1-card combos (Hermit Druid)

Objectively the safest unbans without compromising quality of life (i.e. Earthcraft/Recruiter) or restrictive cost are in order are Mind Twist (no effect) followed by I don't know what will happen but: ??? maybe Balance, Hermit Druid, Time Vault (highly cost prohibitive, but effectively Counterbalance level degeneracy), Mind's Desire, Yawg Bargain, and however you want to rank the rest. This seems to be a recurrent theme with your posts though, thinking that Legacy banlist is like modern and that it is somehow littered with cards that are merely 'good' that are safe (or even healthy) to unban. I mean sure, you unban Survival you'll help fair decks....that will all be Survival decks now?

What exactly are your suggested "unbans" [plural, your words]? You already know what happens to legacy if you unban DTT or TC. There isn't exactly room on the legacy banlist to "change things up a little" without the format becoming overwhelmingly blue...at which point you're blue, the most egregious forms of combo, or some colorless stompy/prison variant - none of which care a thing about a card at such a low power level as Terminus (from those three perspectives, see also Terminus' effect in vintage).

Ban Terminus and more unbans that will shake up legacy in a good way are not really reconcilable viewpoints - which is it man? If you want Terminus out and Survival in, let's hear it...otherwise, no one really knows what you're talking about. There is a very recent trend of fixing most of the cards you could be talking about already underway (Dark Petition~DT, Cryptolith Rite~Earthcraft, Evolutionary Leap~Survival, Tragic Arrogance~Balance, Pore Over the Pages~Frantic Search).

Edit: Yep Hermit Druid, thanks for correction @Bignasty197

Are you suggesting Earthcraft isn't a safe unban because it takes too long(???) but Time Vault and Balance are maybe OK? Huh?

[Fox]

Are you suggesting Earthcraft isn't a safe unban because it takes too long(???) but Time Vault and Balance are maybe OK? Huh?

I have little interest in sitting through a 1 basic Island deck with 16-20 cantrips, either Pyro or Mentor, probably 2 copies of E. Tutor (moat/RiP type insta wins in the board), 1 copy of Earthcraft endlessly chaining cantrips to make some big, non-deterministic army that will swing next turn. If you want to do that just play Splinter Twin or bad Splinter Twin (Earthcraft + Squirrel's Nest) - it seems like a strategy that should be in Hearthstone, but at least it's quick. Just as no one is actually interested in goblins stacking their entire deck, no one actually wants turns that long in competitive play.

You can read back a few pages why I think Time Vault is comparable to, but a better designed card than Counterbalance solely b/c you can snap concede to Vault/Key (a combo whose pieces do almost nothing individually). That's not to say that the combo there isn't inane. When you look at the rest of the banlist after Mind Twist and disqualify cards that are designed to arbitrarily waste time, Balance is probably one of the least offensive...I guess...not advocating for it's unbanning; unlike someone who wants [plural] unbans to shake up legacy 'for the better.'

[Crimhead]

If you want to argue with GPs, at least get your numbers straight and link the right events (instead of SCG Dallas in place of GP Prague):

I fucked my links up, and you give me snide? Wanna complain about my typos next, or should we try to have a real discussion? Seems like a pretty low blow.

GP Prague[/URL] - Miracles coming second, 5 other decks in the Top 32 (18.75% of the Top 32) - which means 50% of the Miracles players played in the Top 32, based on the Top 100 meta - how is that performance below the field?

GP Columbus - 4 (!) Miracles in the Top 8 (50%), another 4 in the Top 16 (50% of the Top 16), and another 4 in the Top 32 (37.5%)- out of 13 Miracle decks in the Top 100 (placing 92.3% in the Top 32).

It's a little bit arbitrary where we look here. If we look at the top 32, Miracles performed above it's field numbers. But, if we look at the top 8 or the top 16, it performed pretty much exactly in proportion to its field representation.

The thing is you seem to want to look at the top 32 only, presumably because that data supports your predetermined conclusion. Similarly your all well over GP Columbus (which is clearly the anomaly here), and you'll completely ignore your recent events with 200+ players (o e had 300) where no Miracles lists made the top eight at all!

It doesn't help your seemingly biased selection of data that you are known to play elves, which is fucked over hard by the deck which you claim is dominant but manages to miss entirely the top brackets of so many major events.

Miracles is a prison deck.

As a dedicated Prison player, I disagree.

Prison pieces tend to be self contained pro-active lock or taking effects. Chalice, Sphere, Tabernacle, Tanglewire, Propaganda, etc.

Counter Balance arguably has a soft locking effect, but it is not self nor entirely pro-active. In fact, CB is only actually good with Top or some other top deck manipulation. In other words, using CB is a reactive process, much like using the other counter-spells Miracles relies on.

Miracles is plays more like a classic U/W control list than like mono U Stasis

[Hopo]

I fucked my links up, and you give me snide? Wanna complain about my typos next, or should we try to have a real discussion? Seems like a pretty low blow.

It's very immature to sling shit at people who catch your mistakes. I get it that it makes you feel foolish but grow up and deal with it. How are we supposed to know whether you actually meant a gp or scg open when your message contradicts itself.

[Barook]

At GP Prauge Miracles put up results bellow it's field numbers.

If we look at the top 32, Miracles performed above it's field numbers. But, if we look at the top 8 or the top 16, it performed pretty much exactly in proportion to its field representation.

You're contradicting yourself here. Posting wrong links with misleading claims can be viewed as a malignent attempt of deception, hence me calling you out - whether it was intentional or not.

It doesn't help your seemingly biased selection of data that you are known to play elves, which is fucked over hard by the deck which you claim is dominant but manages to miss entirely the top brackets of so many major events.

I'm not an Elves player (and never was). I have no idea where your claim does come from. I only pick up decks that can go at least even or better vs Miracles (12 Post, D&T, Sylvan Plug, Eldrazi, etc.). Maverick was only a budget solution until I bought Ports.

[nedleeds]

Can we please not have this anymore? Abrupt Decay and Deathrite were printed to combat Miracles and what happened was

... they just get used in blue decks. Because over a 9+ round event it's hard to beat brainstorm, ponderp and force of will.

[Amon Amarth]

I have little interest in sitting through a 1 basic Island deck with 16-20 cantrips, either Pyro or Mentor, probably 2 copies of E. Tutor (moat/RiP type insta wins in the board), 1 copy of Earthcraft endlessly chaining cantrips to make some big, non-deterministic army that will swing next turn. If you want to do that just play Splinter Twin or bad Splinter Twin (Earthcraft + Squirrel's Nest) - it seems like a strategy that should be in Hearthstone, but at least it's quick. Just as no one is actually interested in goblins stacking their entire deck, no one actually wants turns that long in competitive play.

You can read back a few pages why I think Time Vault is comparable to, but a better designed card than Counterbalance solely b/c you can snap concede to Vault/Key (a combo whose pieces do almost nothing individually). That's not to say that the combo there isn't inane. When you look at the rest of the banlist after Mind Twist and disqualify cards that are designed to arbitrarily waste time, Balance is probably one of the least offensive...I guess...not advocating for it's unbanning; unlike someone who wants [plural] unbans to shake up legacy 'for the better.'

You'd have to replace good cards with Earthcraft and ET and add a 5th color and still find room for basics. That's not good.

Again, since it needs to be said, Recruiter doesn't take that long to stack your deck. If you actually do stack your deck the game will end very quickly.

What about Time Vault's design has anything to do with whether it could be unbanned or not? It is clearly far above what would be considered fair in Legacy. Balance is not "one of the least offensive" cards on the Banned list. Not even close.

[Fox]

You'd have to replace good cards with Earthcraft and ET and add a 5th color and still find room for basics. That's not good.

Again, since it needs to be said, Recruiter doesn't take that long to stack your deck. If you actually do stack your deck the game will end very quickly.

What about Time Vault's design has anything to do with whether it could be unbanned or not? It is clearly far above what would be considered fair in Legacy. Balance is not "one of the least offensive" cards on the Banned list. Not even close.

If you read my post there is a section clearly labeled bans due to cost prohibitive, the examples are not exhaustive. Time Vault is around $800 and isn't ever getting unbanned into a 4x format where every deck can run it... It is referenced to illustrate roughly where "you can't take turns" (in the case of CB, "you can't take meaningful turns") exists on that ban-worthy scale.

The deck you're looking for exists: Esper Mentor~DeMentor. Take that stock list cut 3 cards for E. Tutor x2 and Earthcraft x1; list should already have a basic Island and singleton Trop (for DRS, since the deck is basically Grixis Delver where red went white. Just as anything that runs Explorer/Cabal Therapy is nicfit, so too is any army in a can + Cabal/Probe effectively the same archetype). Minimally slot prohibitive pseudo-Splinter Twin combo that allows for fewer SB duplicates of silver bullets post-board. These Esper decks are currently at 12x cantrips + 4x SDT. Note that a deck like this is automatically more competitive than anything with the demonstrable Squirrel Nest loop shortcutting.

It'd be great if the only place you saw an unbanned Earthcraft was Enchantress, where again it would probably be a 1x as well...but I'd rather not participate in an event where someone wants to go to time cantrip-chaining endlessly in the example above.

The same is true of Recruiter; I don't really want to find out just how much time someone can burn in a single turn resolving that trigger. Now there are two key elements that @LegacyIsAnEternalFormat stated: unbans [multiple] and shake up the meta [presumably in a healthy direction since he/she wants a Terminus ban]. In terms of cards that will fail to shake up the meta at all you have Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Recruiter...maybe Hermit Druid with all the maindeck removal and sideboard cards like RiP.

What cards exactly are you going to choose to unban then that shakes up the meta for the better? There's not a lot left, certainly when we rule things out based on cost-prohibitive grounds and the other categories. You're looking at Balance, storm cards, Strip Mine, Fastbond, TC, and DTT - like it's either Fastbond or Balance, and Fastbond goes straight into tier 1 Lands decks as a 4-of. That's where I'm like, guess he must want to unban Balance and something else 'cause that seems like the least format warping.

[Sidneyious]

Again, since it needs to be said, Recruiter doesn't take that long to stack your deck.

Shouldn't take any long than any blue deck with 16-20 cantrips.
Btw love the username