All B/R update speculation.

[Crimhead]

I think becuase the former has a solid aggro back-up plan, while the later has shit.

I'm not saying Survival needs to stay banned. Maybe the format could contain it now. I'm not really sure. But your comparison it to S&T is flawed.

[btm10]

I think becuase the former has a solid aggro back-up plan, while the later has shit.

If by "shit" you mean "Sneak Attack or Reanimate plus offensive countermagic", and by aggro, you mean "midrange with Jade Leech in play", you're totally right!

[Amon Amarth]

If by "shit" you mean "Sneak Attack or Reanimate plus offensive countermagic", and by aggro, you mean "midrange with Jade Leech in play", you're totally right!

Pretty much this.

It's worth noting that Survival's backup plan of Vengevine spam is still vulnerable to GY hate. It doesn't really matter if your on Ooze or Vengevine or giant fatty you're still hosed.

[Megadeus]

Pretty much this.

It's worth noting that Survival's backup plan of Vengevine spam is still vulnerable to GY hate. It doesn't really matter if your on Ooze or Vengevine or giant fatty you're still hosed.

But but but then they can spend another green mana to get a revoker, cast the revoker, then spend more green mana plus another dude in their yard to get a few 4/3's with haste!!!! Turn 3 possible 4 4/3's with haste is very clearly too powerful for this format.

[Di]

Pretty much this.

It's worth noting that Survival's backup plan of Vengevine spam is still vulnerable to GY hate. It doesn't really matter if your on Ooze or Vengevine or giant fatty you're still hosed.

What's also relevant is that the best and most common graveyard hate used today (Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, not to mention Deathrite Shaman which is a maindeck card) was not printed at the time of Survival's banning. Granted the card is still absurdly powerful and you can easily argue it could be too good despite the presence of that hate, but is probably not above the power level of other broken cards given the strength of graveyard hate and other hosers like Revoker can keep it in check. Considering those are already commonly-played cards regardless of whether Survival is in the format, it is probably safe. You might see a slight uptick in Rest in Peace and Surgical Extraction numbers but otherwise I doubt it'd be that drastic of a shift, and it would be a very interesting wrinkle into the metagame against something like Miracles provided Top survives banning as well.

[Lemnear]

What's also relevant is that the best and most common graveyard hate used today (Rest in Peace, Surgical Extraction, not to mention Deathrite Shaman which is a maindeck card) was not printed at the time of Survival's banning. Granted the card is still absurdly powerful and you can easily argue it could be too good despite the presence of that hate, but is probably not above the power level of other broken cards given the strength of graveyard hate and other hosers like Revoker can keep it in check. Considering those are already commonly-played cards regardless of whether Survival is in the format, it is probably safe. You might see a slight uptick in Rest in Peace and Surgical Extraction numbers but otherwise I doubt it'd be that drastic of a shift, and it would be a very interesting wrinkle into the metagame against something like Miracles provided Top survives banning as well.

Is it intended that you miss the fact that DRS would be played WITH StoF for a lifedraining/-gaining machinegun, especially as you can tutor several of these back-to-back? Also go on ignoring the option to HARDCAST creatures or TUTOR for R.Sage in response to Revoker.

Without offense, but you sound like one claiming, Miracles is easily beatable for creature decks if you land Gaddock Teeg to block Entreat/Terminus willingly ignoring Plowshares and shit just to have a point.

Pretty much this.

It's worth noting that Survival's backup plan of Vengevine spam is still vulnerable to GY hate. It doesn't really matter if your on Ooze or Vengevine or giant fatty you're still hosed.

Dear god stop. Ever heared of HARDCASTING creatures? Vengevine is a fine 4 mana haster ... or lets talk about tutoring several DRS, Delver, TrueNameNemesis spread over a few turns. Sounds funny for most decks

[Vandalize]

Dear god stop. Ever heared of HARDCASTING creatures? Vengevine is a fine 4 mana haster ... or lets talk about tutoring several DRS, Delver, TrueNameNemesis spread over a few turns. Sounds funny for most decks

And Survival makes your topdecks insane, since you can replace whatever creature you draw for the one you need. Busted card.

[Di]

Is it intended that you miss the fact that DRS would be played WITH StoF for a lifedraining/-gaining machinegun, especially as you can tutor several of these back-to-back? Also go on ignoring the option to HARDCAST creatures or TUTOR for R.Sage in response to Revoker.

Without offense, but you sound like one claiming, Miracles is easily beatable for creature decks if you land Gaddock Teeg to block Entreat/Terminus willingly ignoring Plowshares and shit just to have a point.

I wasn't missing that fact, I was merely pointing out that Survival as a card would be far more manageable as there are better and maindeckble options to handle it. Clearly DRS fits in that shell, but that is a pretty sad game against an opposing Rest in Peace too. Obviously the deck has answers to plenty of stuff but that doesn't mean the hate isn't as good. You can make the same argument for any deck.

And if you wanted to take my indirect comment about adding a card like Survival (which would itself be fantastic against Miracles) would simply be an interesting addition to the metagame and twist it to imply I suggested it would be an easily beatable matchup, then you are mistaken. That's not including you're rambling on Gaddock Teeg and such, which wasn't mentioned in the first place. However what I was alluding to is that an engine deck that can fight Counterbalance and removal well would be a welcome addition that may not be overpowered due to the resources available.

So without offense, how in the fuck did you take a generic comment about the card and trail it off into a tangent like that? Is that what it's like to actually have discussion on here these days? Holy shit.

[Fox]

I don't have any historical data on inventory levels of the four cards being seriously discussed (Recruiter, Survival, Ecraft, Mind Twist), but a quick look over at SCG shows roughly 8x the stock of Survival as compared to the next closest card. If nothing else, interesting to think about.

I'm not sure how useful it is to talk about Vengevine; that seems like a card that's coming out post-board and might have put you on the Basking Rootwalla plan? What I think is more concerning is that if Survival is unbanned, the competitive decks using it will be 4x DRS, Decay, Survival and the usual toolbox [Rec Sage, Scooze, Meren (?), BGH (potentially?), Vengeful Pharaoh (seems fine right?) - if we're sticking on color]. I'm sure I'm missing a few common pieces in there, but the end effect is likely further entrenching the habit of playing neither green nor black without the other. It's pretty hard to assert that fair decks that play off the top aren't better off playing with recurring tutors; well that, and the fact that the other payoff is turning cutting K-Grip for tutor'd Rec Sage off a Cavern of Souls (this one needs a reprint badly). Realistically you probably also see 2-4x slots for Horizon Canopy as mandatory for SB hatebear tech like Ethersworn, Teeg, etc... Right here let's freeze prices and note we're adding $160 (4x Survival) + $260 (modest 2x Cavern and 2x Canopy) price tag to the speculative best version of a fair deck.

There is probably something of a soft cap on similar slots that goes into B/R updates. For blue that number is around 12 (Bstorm, FoW, Ponder), noting that both times that ceiling was pushed to 16 (Misstep and delve spells) a ban came down shortly after. Survival/DRS/Decay definitely pushes fair decks to that ceiling in a format where you pretty much need to have an uncounterable way to deal with specifically Counterbalance.

[Amon Amarth]

Dear god stop. Ever heared of HARDCASTING creatures? Vengevine is a fine 4 mana haster ... or lets talk about tutoring several DRS, Delver, TrueNameNemesis spread over a few turns. Sounds funny for most decks

If you're hardcasting Vengevines you're fucked. That isn't plan B, that's garbage.

Er... why are you tutoring for Delver in your Survival deck? I'm just not going to respond to trolling. Don't discuss anything with me if you can't at least be sincere.

[twndomn]

SCG Worcester, July 2016, looks fine to me. Why is there a need to ban?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...=0&limit=limit

[Dice_Box]

SCG Worcester, July 2016, looks fine to me. Why is there a need to ban?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...=0&limit=limit

One datapoint does not a trend make. One data point does not a defence make.

[Lemnear]

If you're hardcasting Vengevines you're fucked. That isn't plan B, that's garbage.

Er... why are you tutoring for Delver in your Survival deck? I'm just not going to respond to trolling. Don't discuss anything with me if you can't at least be sincere.

4/3 haster are "garbage" as a potential plan B? Afaik they are still bigger than Delver, DRS and Batterskull, so I don't think the label is justified.

@ Delver/DRS/TNN tutoring: I merely mention a few NEW options, since you guys still keep discussing the powerlevel of Surival as if its still 2010 and Iona/Vengevine/KotR is the most ridiculous you can pull off with SotF. Its not trolling to point at the calender and todays Legacy creatures.

Edit:

I wasn't missing that fact, I was merely pointing out that Survival as a card would be far more manageable as there are better and maindeckble options to handle it. Clearly DRS fits in that shell, but that is a pretty sad game against an opposing Rest in Peace too. Obviously the deck has answers to plenty of stuff but that doesn't mean the hate isn't as good. You can make the same argument for any deck.

And if you wanted to take my indirect comment about adding a card like Survival (which would itself be fantastic against Miracles) would simply be an interesting addition to the metagame and twist it to imply I suggested it would be an easily beatable matchup, then you are mistaken. That's not including you're rambling on Gaddock Teeg and such, which wasn't mentioned in the first place. However what I was alluding to is that an engine deck that can fight Counterbalance and removal well would be a welcome addition that may not be overpowered due to the resources available.

So without offense, how in the fuck did you take a generic comment about the card and trail it off into a tangent like that? Is that what it's like to actually have discussion on here these days? Holy shit.

Its not an honest discussion about SotF, if all I see in this thread are cherrypicked facts without context like "Better graveyard hate exists" without losing a word about "how the powerlevel of creatures increased". Without offense, but its pointless to keep mentioning Rest In Piece over and over, ignoring that its not a maindeck card and that stuff like ReclamationSage, AbruptDecay and a whole new generation of creatures was printed after KotR/Vengevine/Iona. Its like claimimg that Storm is "solved" because Chalice/Counterbalance exist. We know that storm still pushes through RIP/DRS/Chalice/Counterbalance and Survival/Vengevine can do the same by facing a DRS (the same way Storm can execute a PIF loop against DRS).

TL;DR: a bit more context for discussing Survival regarding its 2016 and not 2010 anymore would be highly welcome. Its pretty much the same with MindTwist, when people point to Rituals -> MindTwist, ignoring that the actual 2016 fits for the card are Elves, Lands, etc

Edit2:
The fact that most Legacy Maindecks are still unable fight Survival with their maindeck is still as relevant as 5 years ago, when people had to spend half their sideboard to have a shot at winning the postboard games after they got crushed game 1 thanks to lack of MB solutions. Its open for discussion if Revoker or DRS have changed much (considering the post-Vengevine options)

[twndomn]

One datapoint does not a trend make. One data point does not a defence make.

Agree, yet one data point is far better than no data point still.

[Alka]

This week's questions for the Top 8 at SCG was "Should Sensei's Diving Top be banned in Legacy?"

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._profiles.html

[DarthVicious]

What I would be happy about on Eldritch Moon's release:
Legacy: Terminus is banned.

What I realistically expect to happen on Eldritch Moon's release:
Legacy: No changes.

[HSCK]

Agree, yet one data point is far better than no data point still.

There's tons of data points for how prevalent Miracles is, why would you focus on just a single event? Why does this one Open take precedence over all the other tournaments?

[maraxusofkelds]

Terminus being banned would mean literally every other game you would face elves. No thanks.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Edit2:
The fact that most Legacy Maindecks are still unable fight Survival with their maindeck is still as relevant as 5 years ago, when people had to spend half their sideboard to have a shot at winning the postboard games after they got crushed game 1 thanks to lack of MB solutions. Its open for discussion if Revoker or DRS have changed much (considering the post-Vengevine options)

Isn't Legacy defined by unbeatable round 1 decks?

Belcher/Oops vs non-FoW
Creature Durdle vs Storm
Sneak and Show vs non-Monster decks
Dredge vs non-DRS

I do not have a problem with a deck being highly favored game 1, as long as the match evens out somewhat post-board. And I agree that having every deck bring 15 cards in to beat a strategy is unhealthy.
So the question is if enough commonly played answers exist for Survival to re-enter society.

Abrupt Decay is a very commonly main-decked card that is a 4-of and deals with Survival. And those decks often also play Deathrite Shaman which is less devastating, but still something that makes it harder for the Survival pilot.

Let's compare Survival decks to Dredge decks. Why is Dredge a 'safe' fringe deck now? DRS is certainly a factor. Plus all sorts of colorless hate (Faerie Macabre, Surgical Extraction, Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt). So that would imply that Survival has the ability to play without the graveyard in a manner Dredge cannot, right? Survival's threats are still hard-castable if it comes to that. But since when is hard casting a 4/3 Haste creature for a problem for Legacy?


I never got to play Legacy when Survival was legal. I am asking the questions above sincerely because if Survival is a safe enough card now, I'd like to see it unbanned.

[porcupinetreeman]

What I would be happy about on Eldritch Moon's release:
Legacy: Terminus is banned.

What I realistically expect to happen on Eldritch Moon's release:
Legacy: No changes.

They will never ban terminus lol. Sensei's divining top + brainstorm are on a much higher power level than terminus. They also enable terminus....good try though.