All B/R update speculation.

[kirkusjones]

Unbannings were discussed at length in the last 10-20 pages. No need to warm that up again.

Forgive me, but isn't the whole point of the thread to be the ouroboros equivalent of a circle jerk between ban/unban discussion?

I'd love to see survival come back, if only to be able to take them for a spin in something besides EDH. I was too busy playing hot garbage when it was legal before to get in on the fun.

[Barook]

Memory Jar? No sadly. It can not. It is just too strong. A draw 7 that you can delay for 5 mana? Storm would use it, of course, but I would hate to think what a pair of these would do in Eldrazi. I know that seems really silly on the fore, thinking about how crazy the draw 7 would be in Storm, but I would really fear a draw effect like this in Stompy.

How exactly do you plan to achieve 5 non-Eldrazi mana in a reasonable timeframe, especially under the threat of Wasteland and other mana disruption?

[Dice_Box]

How exactly do you plan to achieve 5 non-Eldrazi mana in a reasonable timeframe, especially under the threat of Wasteland and other mana disruption?

Sol lands, the 8 it runs? Just a thought. Also I said I pair and the idea would not be to abuse the Jar the way Storm would, but to refuel in a way that let's you bypass the inherent weakness of the deck.

The details are irrelevant, Jar is not safe anyway.

[MorphBerlin]

Forgive me, but isn't the whole point of the thread to be the ouroboros equivalent of a circle jerk between ban/unban discussion?

I'd love to see survival come back, if only to be able to take them for a spin in something besides EDH. I was too busy playing hot garbage when it was legal before to get in on the fun.

It is if somebody has something meaningful to add. On page 724 wcm8 wrote nicely why cards are banned and what not. And if people come and say: "I want to play this card outside EDH" it is just frustrating, what kind of argument is that? Same argument can be used for: Demonic Tutor, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt... like WtH

[DarthVicious]

Leave my blue and artifact cards alone.

Ban terminus.

I know it's a longshot theory... but maybe... just maybe... Thing in the Ice was printed to cover for a Terminus ban?

[Lemnear]

Have to praise this thought. Survival needs to come off, Earthcraft needs to come off, memory jar could stand to come off as well.

A suggestion: Just don't drop into a discussion about Survival, ignore all the pro's & con's presented over the last 6 pages and just drop "Survival must come off" without any freaking reasoning or argument we chewed through in this weeks posts.

[Spam]

The same could be said about aggro where Miracles had its part to kill it for good.

Besides, it's easy to say that there aren't any blue hard control decks left, considering Miracles killed that kind of diversity as well by outclassing everything else.

Pretty hard not to agree with this. The SdT and CB package basically killed any other U/W strategy. If wizard would want to ban Top, they will use the same reasoning behind the twin band in Modern. If you're playing Tundra, 79% of the time you're playing miracles and nothing else.

And please, stop talking about unbanning survival. We all agree that now creatures are way better than they used to be. Survival was safe 8~10 years ago, now is just broken.

[Lemnear]

Pretty hard not to agree with this. The SdT and CB package basically killed any other U/W strategy. If wizard would want to ban Top, they will use the same reasoning behind the twin band in Modern. If you're playing Tundra, 79% of the time you're playing miracles and nothing else.

And please, stop talking about unbanning survival. We all agree that now creatures are way better than they used to be. Survival was safe 8~10 years ago, now is just broken.

Maybe I should bookmark the recent SotF discussion in case it comes up again in the usual 3 month cycle, just for saving us all a lot of time.

I admit I have not looked at the distribution of Tundras played according to archetype. Would be really interresting to see that numbers if one has a source which sets that into relation. From the top of my head, I would ask if the various Blade variants are still around and relevant or if BUG (Shardless & Tempo) as well as Miracles and combo pushed them out. MtgTop8 refers to the various UWx Blade variants with a metagame slice of less than 5% total (counting all variants together)

[Spam]

I can't remember the last time I saw a stoneforge mystic in a non D&T deck...
Those decks are not played anymore...
Yes, please. Every time we discuss about survival I need some sort of condom for my brain. Reasons are just so silly.

P.s. lets unban memory jar, a card so broken it was ban in the standard it was in..

[Kagehisa]

With Terminus and SDT, WotC can print almost safely whatever dumb monsters they want when S&T, Reanimate and the like are legal. Ok, we can cheat monsters, why not sweepers ?

I know Terminus feels the Flash version of sweeper but only if when it is with SDT.

#unbanFlash Hahaaha

Because if we can cheat sweepers, why not monsters ?

[Lemnear]

With Counterbalance and SDT, WotC can unban almost safely whatever dumb restricted list card they want

Fixed.

[Dice_Box]

Ah ok, I was looking at the "Tier Decks" under "Metagame", which just seems to go by "no. of tops" for each deck. I just saw the line you're talking about, and I'm guessing they mean "based on it's attendance", not "asistance". That's still a little vague, do you get more than one point per round in large tournaments, or do you just get more points by virtue of there being more rounds?

The latter. In short the larger the event the heavier the points weighting. Something I agree with. Because making the top tables in a 5 round event is not the same as going so in a 15 round GP. The guy that makes the quarters in 5 rounds gets 6 points (one per round and the Semi he won) the guy that makes the semis in a 15 round GP gets 16.

The longer your event, the more points that can be gained. But there are weaknesses to this method. It depends on TO's giving detailed reports on events and many just hand over top 8 info. That means if you have a 9 round event, some of the top 16 might also get 8 or 9 points for their respective deck, but it goes unreported and the points therefore can not be allocated.

The system is flawed, but nothing is perfect. I personally like this over no data at all. Also with the latest change to this being Goldfish accepting external results, I may soon be able to compile the online meta into its own DTB section, something I have wanted to do for a while.

[Stan]

Maybe I should bookmark the recent SotF discussion in case it comes up again in the usual 3 month cycle, just for saving us all a lot of time.

Why? It's not as if Wizards gives a rat's ass about what people have to say about a potential future ban/unban on any of these forums, and people seem to enjoy such completely impactless bickering.

[Chatto]

Why? It's not as if Wizards gives a rat's ass about what people have to say about a potential future ban/unban on any of these forums, and people seem to enjoy such completely impactless bickering.

I presume it is to remind ourselfs the 'impactless bickering', and how people don't really contributie (myself included) to a good conversation. I like a complete and uttetless meaningless discussion, just like so many people, but this thread really doesn't go anywhere, because no one really contributes anything relevant or new. Just follow my example and enjoy the game. If WotC changes anything, fine, and if not, well... It's not as if we're going to lose any sleep over it

[dte]

I admit I have not looked at the distribution of Tundras played according to archetype. Would be really interresting to see that numbers if one has a source which sets that into relation. From the top of my head, I would ask if the various Blade variants are still around and relevant or if BUG (Shardless & Tempo) as well as Miracles and combo pushed them out. MtgTop8 refers to the various UWx Blade variants with a metagame slice of less than 5% total (counting all variants together)

MtgTop8:
23.8 % Tundra
Terminus 18.3 %
Counterbalance 18.2 %

So I would say around 5% of non miracle decks include tundra (stoneblade, bant, patriot, even more random).

[Julian23]

Technical correction: if you assume that 18% of decks play Terminus and 23% of decks play Tundra, a bit over 21% of Tundra-decks are not Miracles. What you probably referred to is 5 percentage points, not 5%. I think it's important to point out the difference as people got those two confused a lot.

[Mr Miagi]

Technical correction: if you assume that 18% of decks play Terminus and 23% of decks play Tundra, a bit over 21% of non-Miracle decks include Tundra. What you probably referred to is 5 percentage points, not 5%. I think it's important to point out the difference as people got those two confused a lot.

What is this math and logic that you speak of? Don't you know where you are? It's the 700 page thread (doubt many forums have this). If we'd follow math and logic and not biased personal opinions and preferences we'd be done with this a lot quicker.

But I have my popcorns at the ready

[dte]

Technical correction: if you assume that 18% of decks play Terminus and 23% of decks play Tundra, a bit over 21% of non-Miracle decks include Tundra. What you probably referred to is 5 percentage points, not 5%. I think it's important to point out the difference as people got those two confused a lot.

No, 5/82=6%, not 21% :)
So 6% of non miracle decks include tundra.

Your 21 is probably the number of decks that play tundra and are not miracle (5/23=0.217).

But you are right, the less confusing and most proper statement should be 5% of the decks in mtgtop 8 play tundra without being miracle.

[Megadeus]

I can't remember the last time I saw a stoneforge mystic in a non D&T deck...
Those decks are not played anymore...
Yes, please. Every time we discuss about survival I need some sort of condom for my brain. Reasons are just so silly.

P.s. lets unban memory jar, a card so broken it was ban in the standard it was in..

I mean with that logic artifact lands, stone forge and Jace the mind sculptor should be banned

[Julian23]

Your 21 is probably the number of decks that play tundra and are not miracle (5/23=0.217)

Yes, that's what I meant because I assumed you wanted to point out that the vast majority of UW decks are just Miracles. So I corrected that 5% to 21%, assuming that's what you were referring to and erroneously just presented the 5 percentage point difference as a 5% difference. But apparently you were referring to the 5% overall share of the meta.