All B/R update speculation.

[H]

But really, the departure of their traditional schedule is the probably most interesting part, I doubt the bans will be much for Legacy.

That all but assures it pertains to Standard, however much we hope/despair it might be something else too.

[MaximumC]

But really, the departure of their traditional schedule is the probably most interesting part, I doubt the bans will be much for Legacy.

Yeah, this smells like Memory Jar to me.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ist-2015-07-13

The one card that was ever subject to an emergency ban was Memory Jar, which has the unfortunate text "draw seven cards" on it. However, the power of Memory Jar itself isn't why the DCI broke with its normal policy of quarterly changes. The only reason the DCI chose not to wait until the next regularly scheduled date was because the very health of the Magic game was being threatened by "Combo Winter[1]." Urza's Saga was four months old when Memory Jar came out in Urza's Legacy. During those four months, there was a large and loud public outcry about the way the game was being ruined by all the "broken" cards in Saga. [Players] either played against a steady stream of combo decks, or they didn't play at all [. . .] Players began leaving the game in droves. It was vitally important to the health of the game to clean things up before too many more players walked away, so quite a large number of cards were included in the DCI's March 1, 1999 announcement, which would become effective April 1 of that year. Players were optimistic that Combo Winter was finally going to end. That's when Urza's Legacy came out and introduced yet another broken combo card to the environment. The stakes were high and the DCI did not want to see Memory Jar undo all the work they were trying to do that March, so they issued an emergency ban.

[Dice_Box]

I doubt they missed the combo in testing, saw it on the net, then tested it in less than a week and found it broken.

[nedleeds]

Instead of arguing about B&R I present a gift to the community ... a 'Best of, Half a Decade of Dominance' post. I forgot people actually thought Vise, Dragon and Land Tax were unsafe to restrict. I obviously knew better.

Card: Brainstorm.

Reason: For years has been enabling degenerate strategies running the gambit from control, to aggro, to combo. The most ubiquitous non-land artifact, land card to ever grace the format. 23 of 32 at GP Amsterdam played a full 4. Fixes otherwise unsalvagable opening hands making it nearly a must play. Playing without it leaves you at the mercy of your starting 7. Pulls out unwinnable mid game situations by allowing you to dig at instant speed 3 cards deep and still replace brainstorm. Obviates discard as a strategy against combo and control by hiding key cards. Has only gotten more utility with the printing of fetch lands. If you aren't playing Chalice on 1 or all in aggro strategies like Merfolk you should be playing Island and Brainstorm, why leave your opening hand to chance?

Result: Brainstorm. Banned.

...

As per mods moving shitty attempt to argue for unrestricting other less ubiquitous cards in the face of Brainstorms stifling dominance.

Bazaar of Moxen 6: Brainstorm 7/8 top 8
SCG: Brainstorm 7/8, 10 or top 12

...

oh look

8x4 = 32 Brainstorms in yesterday's SCG top8

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8458

Nobody wants to hear it. They are in love with the notion that Brainstorm is some special card that can never be banned, mostly because they think they acting 'skillful', 'skill intensive' and 'semi pro' when they cast it.

<run on>
The fact that people are talking about banning Show and Tell and Griselbrand and implying all these cards are the problem when Brainstorm is so obviously the card that makes all these strategies and absurd 17 land mana bases work is just getting comical at this point.
</run on>

Brainstorm is so far and above the power level of some of the cards currently on the banned list that it makes the DCI look like fools. All these poor decks that at some point in a long 8-9 round tournament that had to keep 6 card mulligans without Brainstorm and lost were just fooling themselves. The magic fix for bad mana or no action all for the cost of U, and one life for a fetch ... either play it or win the dice roll and cast Chalice on 1. The poor decks that had to play fair 22 land mana bases were just wasting their $40, when you can play 14 mana lands and 4 wastelands and just fix it all for U.

Absurd.

...

wat

So the only thing that is keeping combo in check is force of will and the only thing keeping aggro in check is brainstorm. Must be tiring for all the blue mages holding this format together!

Uh ... the best aggro deck plays Brainstorm. So does the best combo deck(s). Oh and the best control deck as well. But hey why cite facts when you can just rage quit over an obvious ban candidate finally getting it's due.

...

What is the core argument for banning? Is it ubiquity at the last SCG event top 8, I got news for you there was one less FoW than there was Brainstorm, so we have to ban that also?

Does FoW let you keep an otherwise unkeepable hand. No. Does FoW get played in every combo deck. No. Is FoW a fair answer to targeted discard. Yes. Is FoW a good top deck when you are losing. No.

But regardless ubiquity isn't the only argument. It's raw power level. I'd say Force of Will is a card that is close being ban worthy but can't affect board state, requires a reasonably heavy commitment to blue, and is most of the time draining to an important resource (your hand). Of course having brainstorm can gas up your hand again for the low low cost of U and sending back a sandbagged land and fetching.

Limiting design space? Uh there are decks that don't play brainstorm right.

Sure ... you can bring a chalice deck to a GP. But good luck navigating 10+ rounds without the ability to fix bad opening hands. Brainstorm is essentially a free mulligan in your opener. When teamed up with a fetch its card selection / quality / drawing that is unmatched.

There are a lot of cards that can be abused.

Sure. They are mostly on the banned list.

DCI has used a variety of reasons in the past. Of course you won't directly refute my core point ... is it, or is it not more powerful (ubiquitous, design space limiting, etc.) than several cards currently on the banned list?

Cabal Therapy is the biggest skill tester and one of best cards in the format for many reasons. It is fantastic in the hands of someone knowledgeable and mediocre to bad when someone mediocre uses it. This is how games should work, they should be skill dependant, no card is more skill dependant in this format then Cabal Therapy. If you want to take out our format's hardest to use card then I think you should be playing a different format with easier to use cards.

Your argument applies to 50 different cards. The argument is about whether Brainstorm is on the power level or greater as the rest of the banned list. All of you stop stroking your wanna be semi-pro magic ego thinking you are some great practitioners of brainstorm-fu.

Also ... two skill intensives in one day! More than I ever could have hoped for

...

Nope, thats the SCG format. Although I admit RUG is placing very high everywhere and I cant blame people jumping the grisel-wagon as it seems very fun deck to play.

For example Bazaar Moxen top8:
1 Maverick
3 Thresh
1 Sneak & Show
1 Blue Zoo
1 Esper Tempo
1 Doomsday
1 Blade Control

That's 9 decks. 8 with Brainstorm.

PTQ Ghent I played in last weekend had the following decks in t8:
2 UW Countertop (1 Miracle, 1 Thopter)
4 Thresh
1 NLT
1 Sneak & Show

Brainstorm everywhere Hopefully people adapt their Maverick lists (Revoker/whatever else has been discussed lately) and we see some mavericks in top8s again.

Wow 8 for 8. It's hilarious that some people argue that the card isn't ban worthy. For those clinging to the Brainstorm-tit as the only reason you shuffle up a deck you better hope for some unbannings to shake things up.

...

Brainstorm goes 16 for 18. That seems balanced. Decks with like 8 colored mana producers are navigating 8 round tourneys. Earthcraft, Mind Twist and freaking Black Vise are banned. This is getting laughable. Defenders of Brainstorm are starting to sound like religious zealots ... answering the unanswerable with stuff like, 'it defines the format', 'it's a pillar', 'i woud quit' and other indirect non-answers that have no relationship to the criteria used to ban cards.

Just to make sure that I don't misinterpret what you are saying: your point is that Brainstorm - just like the power 9 - should stay in the format despite being obviously overpowered because of nostalgic reasons?

Thats what he's saying essentially. He cant refute my arguments about the cards power level and ubiquity. He trolls saying I'm 'mad'. He says brainstorm, a blue card, is the 'core' of legacy. Which of course doesn't actually mean anything. Then he calls me a pussy and tells me to play modern becuae he cant refute the facts about the card. Tells me that playing islands, and starting every deck with 4 copies of the same overpowered colored card is a good thing. Makes inane comparisons to lands ... which are required when building a deck and saying they are ubiquitous and thus should be banned also.

...

16 Delvers and 10 Show Tell(12 Grisel) in decks, 20 Delvers if counting top 16.

40 Brainstorms. Convenient that you left that out. 2 Chalice decks that were likely mulliganing to chalice on 1 to stop Brainstorm.

...

I could care less if anything gets banned. I just want to see something get unbanned, for Christ's sake.

If I wielded the hammer,

Bannings: None

Unbannings:

Mind Twist
Earthcraft
Black Vise
Land Tax
Worldgorger Dragon
Survival of the Fittest

Keep your fucking brainstorms. Just spread the broken cards around a little bit.

...

I think the order from safest to unban to unsafe is something like

- Black Vise
- WGD
- Earthcraft
- SotF
- Mind Twist
- Memory Jar

I think Jar being a colorless, permanent based, draw 7 is pretty powerful and not just in MUD. In Storm you could even build Show and Tell strategies around it. The only comparables right now are Reforge the Soul and Dimishing Returns.

...

I just love that he thinks that Mental Misstep is okay to unban. That just seems AWFUL.

It's absurd. Legacy is nearly a 56 card format right now with Brainstorm ... welcome back to 52 card format. Enjoy Merfolk with 4 MM and Progenifish also ...

...

No. Mental Misstep made everything more miserable because Delver and SFM decks could really tap out with impunity and not even get Mind Rotted. The result is every single deck not intending to cast Chalice on 1 was a 56 card deck. Even decks without Islands had no hope but to play their own Misteps ... just to counter other Misteps. What an awful format. We already almost have a defacto 56 card format with Brainstorm being so stone fucking retarded.

...

Everytime someone argues against Survival they just assume that the survival player has an answer to everything, has near infinite green mana, and is never running out of creatures to discard. It's unsafe because of the vengevine combo. You know, thats way better than 2U for a Shopw and tell when your combo costs 1GGGGGG and attacks with vanilla 4/3's and loses to any piece of hate.

BuT if they terminus you can do it agIIIIIIN nxT turn !!!! FRRR only 1GGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG???!?!??!?! TOO STRONG. GO PLAY MODERN!

...

Have fun fanning out an opener with Terminus and Entreat and being unable to unmulligan! Miracles without Brainstorm is like playing with 6 Blightsteels. Spare me. Maybe Lat-Nam's Legacy can save the archtype.

...

I don't really think you can ban an iconic card like Brainstorm. It is the defining card of legacy.

The 10 beta dual lands are the defining cards of Legacy.

...

I like this kind of peace. Its better than having people trying to force other people to see that what they believe is right
and that consitency is a thing you should not have in a card game.

I want to make sure luck is low as possible involved when playing at a tournement and skill is what counts for a win. Brainstorm helps because its increases consistency. Also yes you can also can assume I would prefer Dämonic Tutor to be unbanned.

Go play Chess. Magic is a card game. There's a random element.

...

Jace had a 100% (yes, 100%) penetration in some PTQ Top8s shortly before the banning (32 out of 32 possible Jaces that is), while Jace was a 100 $ card at that time. I'm pretty sure if we see the same thing true for Brainstorm it will be banned in short order.

What are you even talking about? We've had a perfect brainstorm quite a few times at well attended events (9+ rounds), the poster child was GP Paris where we had 28/32 possible Brainstorms and the other deck running 6 maindeck red blasts. We also had somebody cheat and draw extra cards with Brainstorm on camera. All of this wasn't enough to get it banned. So arguing about whether it should be banned based on event results, facts, power level, ubiquity is a waste of text. At this point nobody with a functioning brain is arguing about it's banworthiness, only about WotC pulling the trigger on it. It's the Necropotence lesson all over again, they banned / restricted a half dozen cards around Necro because people enjoyed the card. Nothing ever worked. finally they banned Necro. Treasure Cruise was a sacrificial lamb in place of the better, more ubiquitous, more abusive card Brainstorm. They can keep pulling hot garbage like WGD off the banned list (ironically if it puts up any results guess what it'll be paired with?) it won't change the 80%. They can keep printing 'hosers' like SotL and Notion Thief but it'll have to be something insane to incent people to not play 4 virtual Ancestrals.

...

Thanks for immediately getting skill intensive out of the way without me having to even try.

Edit: you also got go play modern out of the way as well. I'm still looking for 'might as well ban island' and then some incoherent rant about how everyone plays Black Lotus in vintage.

...

One can make the same argument about Mental Misstep.

I have him ignored, but yes. That argument is dog shit ... I can build Necro Combo, Necro Control and Necro Aggro. Thanks for pointing out that Brainstorm is actually so fucking absurd, ubiquitous, and powerful that it's an automatic 4 of in the formats best Combo, Control and Aggro decks. How is that a defense for keeping it legal? Glad you aren't lawyers.

...

Skill intensive isn't a ban criteria. WotC says so. Necropotence is skill intensive. Yawgmoth's Will is skill intensive. WTF does that have to do with banning? Cabal Therapy is skill intensive ... there aren't 32 of them in the top 8 of GPs. Sylvan Library is skill intensive. Magic: The Gathering is generally filled with decision making and learned heuristics. Brainstorm is far from the holy grail of skill like you apologists make it out to be. Ponder, Preordain, Impulse, Intuition, Fact of Fiction, Lim Dul's Vault are also skill intensive but they aren't hopelessly ubiquitous, overpowered and insane (Ponder probably is with respect to the crap currently banned).

...

Also I want to report a new high in the 'Brainstorm is OK' camp. Great Stable Stag and Skylasher have entered the fray. I can't wait to stare down Omnichimp man who has crafted a perfect hand with Brainstorms, Ponders and fetches ... getting rid of extra Omni's and casting Show and Tell ... just seeing the look on his face when I present the finest of all Stags. He will actually rupture his diaphragm from laughter and die, thus losing the match.

...

So are you trying to argue that banning Brainstorm would make the format healthier/more fun/more diverse/more interesting or are you simply trying to hold wizards accountable for some kind of "Simon Says: Ban this card"

If it's the latter case do you also support the reserved list? I want things to happen for the benefit of the game, not because 'WotC says this'.

I'm saying Legacy isn't Vintage. It shouldn't be burdened with non basic land cards you must play. It shouldn't be a 56 or 52 card format, which results show it clearly is and has been.

If the card were legal, a competitive player either must be playing it, or must be specifically targeting it with his or her own strategies.

Clearly it would help diversity simply because we'd have a 60 card format. Blue would likely still dominate, and if a year down the road Ponder is a 32/32 in a major event then they should look at that. Just like if Necro was legal there is a strong chance you'd see a 32/32 showing for Necro. Just like if Survival was a 32/32 they should look at Survival. Strangely it wasn't, holding one random common to a different standard is absurd. It's not simon says, it's a clear rational directive as stated above in their words, you are playing this CARD as a competitive player or you are forced to target that card. Even more alarming is WotC has tried to print hate for draw / cantrips (SotL, Notion Thief, various tax / rule of law effects) but the benefit of the 56 or 52 card is still stronger than the hate they've printed.

Or, try unbanning some cards with text see if any of them dent Brainstorms 100% saturation. Metalworker didn't, Monolith didn't, Land Tax didn't, Dragon didn't.

I am not in favor of the reserved list, especially the 'Negator Rule' which closed the prior loophole they had to produce foils for promo or limited print run purposes.

...

Lovely.

Clearly, everyone just loved Affinity too, right? Survival and Flash weren't problems either, people just liked them. Folks playing Cawblade in Standard were just fans of the deck (probably true actually, everyone else had ragequit ages ago), and the list goes on.

I loved Necropotence! You could combo with it (trix), play aggro (hymns, knights, bolts) or just grind people into dust with control necro! All different decks too!

I don't hate Brainstorm, it's just not an interesting format anymore once it's reached this point of staleness. I guess if I was a child and this was all new to me and I thought in terms of complete decks served up to me by my favorite internet hero instead of looking at cards in the card pool maybe I'd be fine with a 56 card format, it does make deck building easier.

Another fun fact about GP Kyoto:

There are 17 green cards (including Abrupt Decay in this to be generous) in the top 8
There are 17 Red/pyroblasts in the top 8

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, nice format.

...

BS 16/16 at an SCG event

Can't remember a spell ever 64/64ing. Truly breaking new ground in ubiquity, complete staleness and brokenness.

...

To be fair, Dig Through Time kinda does the same thing and people are calling for its head. Different tempo, combo, and control decks have all been known to run it, so it has been proven that it supports multiple types of decks. The only condition being you don't run Rest in Peace and can afford .

Okay, so it doesn't fit into EVERY deck, but you get my point.

Let's look at the inception of split legacy, by Brainstorm deck I actually mean a deck with 4 Brainstorms here.

GP Philly 2005 (38%)

3 Brainstorm decks, Brainstorm makes a 12 card appearance.

GP Lille 2006 (50%)

4 Brainstorm decks, 16 card appearance.

GP Columbus 2007 (63%)

5 Brainstorm fueled decks (including 3 flash combo decks, 3 was enough to get Flash banned) 20 appearances.

GP Chicago 2009 (50%)

4 Brainstorm decks, 16 out of 32.

GP Madrid 2010 (63%)

5 Brainstorm decks, Entomb is legal as well, 20 appearances.

GP Columbus 2010 (63%)

5 Brainstorm decks, now we're getting warm.

GP Providence 2011 (75%) heating up!

6 Brainstorm decks at GP Mental Misstep

follow this trend and it's 28/32 at Paris, 32/32 Kyoto and so on.

... also of note 7 of 8 on Mental Misstep was sufficient to get that POS banned ... and then it's all downhill, there's a double DNT / Merfolk top 8 but it's pretty much been a fucking Brainstorm orgy since.

[Ace/Homebrew]

10 minutes til we know for certain...

[MaximumC]

Instead of arguing about B&R I present a gift to the community ... a 'Best of, Half a Decade of Dominance' post.

I appreciate this gift as much as a child appreciates receiving socks for Christmas.

[Megadeus]

90% of the post is simply facts and people still refute them

[Dice_Box]

Its not live yet but here:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2017-01-09

Emrakul, the Promised End is banned.

Smuggler's Copter is banned.

Reflector Mage is banned.

Modern:

Gitaxian Probe is banned.

Golgari Grave-Troll is banned.

Fuck. I just got an Emmy for Highlander too...

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Probe/Troll bans are surprising (fully expected them to do nothing to modern)

[nedleeds]

LOL they don't even say "Legacy No Changes" anymore. The format is just nonexistent.

[Megadeus]

As a non standard player, that seems... egregious

[MaximumC]

Probe/Troll bans are surprising (fully expected them to do nothing to modern)

...wow.

Well, I was totally wrong. Looks like we're in for COMBO KALADESH STANDARD!

I, for one, could not be happier!

[rufus]

I guess using the B&R list to mitigate R&D mistakes is what we should expect.

That said, the standard ban seems like an attempt to mitigate the structural failure inherent in the 'weak answers strong threats' concept, and those cards will just get replaced by the next best set of threats.

Similarly, it's a bit off-putting to see them put out so many strong and obvious dredge enablers and then turn around and ban one dredge card.

[Dice_Box]

So um, 8 announcements a year now? Yay?

Banned and Restricted announcements will now be made both on the Monday after Standard-legal set Prereleases and five weeks after a Pro Tour, also on a Monday.

[jandax]

Hey you guys hear that? The sky just fell


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TsumiBand]

...it's a bit off-putting to see them put out so many strong and obvious dredge enablers and then turn around and ban one dredge card.

Well,

[Ace/Homebrew]

Yaaaay! Foil Copters will be cheap now. Glad I waited.

[TsumiBand]

Yaaaay! Foil Copters will be cheap now. Glad I waited.

Do these even have a home outside of Standard? Vehicles look like such ass, but tbh I've never played one

[Dice_Box]

Some Vintage play.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Do these even have a home outside of Standard? Vehicles look like such ass, but tbh I've never played one

Only in a sparsely played tier 2 mono-red deck that doesn't have any better filtering options.