All B/R update speculation.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Give Burn some love. Or Fish, Affinity.

They have to be careful because doing so will affect Modern in a much stronger way than it will affect Legacy.

[rufus]

They have to be careful because doing so will affect Modern in a much stronger way than it will affect Legacy.

They can always stick it in the commander sets.

[Finn]

Got to be careful what you give white. You don't really want miracles to co-opt it.

[Megadeus]

You basically have to be careful with any non blue effect. If you get a powerful effect that is easily splashable then the blue decks just adopt it. That is one reason I am very unhappy with Harsh Mentor not being symmetrical. It most likely will be best utilized by the blue decks and just contribute to the lack of diversity in deck building.

[Crimhead]

They have to be careful because doing so will affect Modern in a much stronger way than it will affect Legacy.

You would think. But back in (I think) 2011 WotC started to support a casual format called Commander. They released 5 preconstructed 100 card decks which included a handful of all new cards - legal in Legacy but not in Modern. Flash forward to 2014, and WotC releases Conspiracy - a non-standard-legal expansion set actually designed for multiplayer limited! Again, the new cards were legal in Legacy but not in Modern.

Both these releases have had follow-ups (and something called Planechase or Archenemy too). They provide a venue for new eternal-only cards, as well as essential reprints. This is not an abstract theory. Flusterstorm, Strix, Prelate, and others all come from such products.

WotC shouldn't require too much caution to keep Legacy plants in the correct packages I think.

Also, WotC have their heads up their asses. Wild Growth is too powerful for Standard, but Legacy quality midrange value is not? R&D philosophy needs a new shake up.

[tescrin]

You basically have to be careful with any non blue effect. If you get a powerful effect that is easily splashable then the blue decks just adopt it. That is one reason I am very unhappy with Harsh Mentor not being symmetrical. It most likely will be best utilized by the blue decks and just contribute to the lack of diversity in deck building.

The problem is that if it's symmetrical, no one will use it, E.G. Anhk of Mishra. It's too difficult to fit into legacy if it's symmetrical. EotGR for example could be in Jund, Delver, etc.. and drive the CMC up a bit if it were easier to cast or not symmetrical. The problem with the card is that double-pumping goyf, burning yourself, and having no fat on the front end make it very risky to include in a deck.

If it's not symmetrical then even Jund and other non-blue decks can experiment without being both inconsistent AND self-punishing. That card may not be good enough to do anything, but it's getting there.

It's a card that punishes both D&T and Miracles (and aluren, lol.) more than other decks. It also doesn't keep you from using DRS or fetches, meaning it may actually see play.


I'm on a big tangent now, but the fact is, if it was symmetrical, sure.. that's better card design for Casual or Mtg:15-Years-Ago; but the problem is they've fucked that sideways for the last 10-15 years for most cards. Most things don't have drawbacks now; (though it's entertaining that Thalia and EotGR do.) But then.. Thalia would be a hell of a lot more decks if she wasn't two-sided.

I agree that card-design and game-design wise (of old) he should hit both sides, but the fact is.. he will be lucky to see much play as is.

Aside: I think that he exists in part to counter Lantern Control in modern while helping legacy a little bit.

[Megadeus]

The problem is that if it's symmetrical, no one will use it, E.G. Anhk of Mishra. It's too difficult to fit into legacy if it's symmetrical. EotGR for example could be in Jund, Delver, etc.. and drive the CMC up a bit if it were easier to cast or not symmetrical. The problem with the card is that double-pumping goyf, burning yourself, and having no fat on the front end make it very risky to include in a deck.

If it's not symmetrical then even Jund and other non-blue decks can experiment without being both inconsistent AND self-punishing. That card may not be good enough to do anything, but it's getting there.

It's a card that punishes both D&T and Miracles (and aluren, lol.) more than other decks. It also doesn't keep you from using DRS or fetches, meaning it may actually see play.


I'm on a big tangent now, but the fact is, if it was symmetrical, sure.. that's better card design for Casual or Mtg:15-Years-Ago; but the problem is they've fucked that sideways for the last 10-15 years for most cards. Most things don't have drawbacks now; (though it's entertaining that Thalia and EotGR do.) But then.. Thalia would be a hell of a lot more decks if she wasn't two-sided.

I agree that card-design and game-design wise (of old) he should hit both sides, but the fact is.. he will be lucky to see much play as is.

Aside: I think that he exists in part to counter Lantern Control in modern while helping legacy a little bit.

I agree from a power level standpoint. But I really don't like bad design even if it does benefit the things that I enjoy or hate on things I don't enjoy. I really do hope that this is actually good enough to hate on Miracles (though I doubt it). My fear is that it's just another tool for the blue decks that can now get good hate against non blue decks. It all boils down to the cantrip cartel being the best thing (consistency and power level combined) in the format and easily absorbing anything it touches.

[tescrin]

I agree from a power level standpoint. But I really don't like bad design even if it does benefit the things that I enjoy or hate on things I don't enjoy. I really do hope that this is actually good enough to hate on Miracles (though I doubt it). My fear is that it's just another tool for the blue decks that can now get good hate against non blue decks. It all boils down to the cantrip cartel being the best thing (consistency and power level combined) in the format and easily absorbing anything it touches.

Fully agree. I think it'll probably go into Grixis Delver and may well be good enough to push that deck again, since D&T and Miracles are it's only issues. Add in that they can run Decay next to it and in theory their miracles MU is reasonable, and their D&T MU should be brutal since he becomes must remove.

I don't believe he'll hate out miracles more than a percentage point or two, but I wouldn't be surprised if D&T numbers drop a lot from it and UBRg Delver is out in force. Noteworthy; it is garbage against Eldrazi and pretty mediocre against BUG anything (it only hits fetches and DRS.) Looks like he's reasonable against lands if you keep them off of PFire as well.

That said, he really adds to the mana disruption package of Delver since you can force people to play into him by hitting their lands. I wouldn't be surprised if Stifle is back out there as well.




Shit. I better get back on topic.. Ban brainstorm! Unban Mind Twist! Etc.

[EmoPizza]

So how long until we get Survival of the Fittest back?
There's been a bunch of counterplay printed since it's banning long ago.

Abrupt Decay
Deathrite Shaman
Phyrexian Revoker
Grafdigger's Cage
Rest in Peace
(Just to name a few)

[Megadeus]

So how long until we get Survival of the Fittest back?
There's been a bunch of counterplay printed since it's banning long ago.

Abrupt Decay
Deathrite Shaman
Phyrexian Revoker
Grafdigger's Cage
Rest in Peace
(Just to name a few)

Surgical
Scavenging Ooze
Snap caster (with surgical or swords)
Containment Priest

[Lemnear]

So how long until we get Survival of the Fittest back?
There's been a bunch of counterplay printed since it's banning long ago.

Abrupt Decay
Deathrite Shaman
Phyrexian Revoker
Grafdigger's Cage
Rest in Peace
(Just to name a few)

Do is all a favor and just read through the last 20ish pages of this thread to see the arguments on the matter and your so-called "counterplays". There is no need to go over the same stuff every month

[Gheizen64]

Don't forget:

Delver of Secrets
Monastery mentor
Monastery Swiftspear
Young Pyromancer
Gurmag Angler
Misthollow griffin
True name-nemesis
Baleful Stryx
Thought-knot Seer
Reality Smasher

All new powerful creatures that are good only in non-survival decks (because of mana requirements, see stryx and TNN, deck building requirements, prowess/delve creatures, or because they go with a different engine, see griffins which want Food chain/manipulate fate and eldrazis which want tons of C lands). You could add also SFM in there but the card is seeing extremely scarce play nowadays and also it could go in some survival shells even if it would probably be bad in there (super durdly in an already durdly sotf deck).

But survival get better with new better creatures guise! Totally! I swear! Loyal retainer for Iona T4 too borken for the format!

[Dice_Box]

Do is all a favor and just read through the last 20ish pages of this thread to see the arguments on the matter and your so-called "counterplays". There is no need to go over the same stuff every month

I think if I read though the thread I would come to the view you are the minority voice here. Most of us think this card will do no harm. I mean feel free to rail road others with your point of view, but don't make out you have the high ground here. Your pretty much on your own.

[Darkenslight]

Do is all a favor and just read through the last 20ish pages of this thread to see the arguments on the matter and your so-called "counterplays". There is no need to go over the same stuff every month

To be fair, we've been going over on BS for nearly 10 years now.

[Lemnear]

I think if I read though the thread I would come to the view you are the minority voice here. Most of us think this card will do no harm. I mean feel free to rail road others with your point of view, but don't make out you have the high ground here. Your pretty much on your own.

I didn't say that. I just said, that we had the whole forth and back on the topic already countless times and nothing, literally nothing had changed in terms of the metagame, cardpool, printing policy or the like since then.

"Harm" is a vague word here imo. Further streamlining of BGx decks would qualify here in my eyes if Elves, Jund and Maverick all possibly merge into a single pile. In case one understands "harm" as in "affects the top dogs", then no, it would most likely not.

I just don't see any reason to take a risk by further streamlining creature decks for less diversity with ongoing creature power creep, which got SotF banned in the first place

[Crimhead]

"Harm" is a vague word here imo. Further streamlining of BGx decks would qualify here in my eyes if Elves, Jund and Maverick all possibly merge into a single pile.

Maverick and Jund have merged into a single pile. It's called 4c Loam.

I have not much opinion on Survival - I'm not sure how it would affect the meta. I do agree there is a (potential) danger of streamlining. But I'm skeptical about Elves losing its identity. Elves is based around tribal synergies, and cannot imo merge with good-stuff decks.

[Lemnear]

Maverick and Jund have merged into a single pile. It's called 4c Loam.

I have not much opinion on Survival - I'm not sure how it would affect the meta. I do agree there is a (potential) danger of streamlining. But I'm skeptical about Elves losing its identity. Elves is based around tribal synergies, and cannot imo merge with good-stuff decks.

Dunno. I feel that since Elves run Jitte, Leovold, planeswalkers and sometimes even MB Decays, the deck is already on the way of becoming a BUG goodstuff pile. Essentially, I have little interrest in Survival just spilling oil into the fire of the whole BGx vs UWx metagame.

[Dice_Box]

Ongoing power creep is a rocky argument. Entomb was at one point banned, times changed and it found itself as a common but rather mundane part of Legacy. If Grizzlebees isn't the ultimate show of creep for that card I don't know what is. But that said, Entomb now only plays a role, but it's nothing more than an actor in a larger whole. Something I feel Survival would mirror.

As for Survival merging a ton of decks together:

Jund is not a deck Legacy, it's just not. You can use it as a tool in debate, sure, but to be honest no one thinks twice about the deck. Why play Red over Blue? Your not morphing Jund into anything if you bring it back, your resuscitating it.

Elves and Survival? Not sure why I would to be honest. It's better off as it stands now. True Card advantage in Glimpse, early speed gained by GSZ matched by its late game gains. I am not sure I want to change much of that.

Maverick would change. But that's really what it needs. It doesn't have the kind of tools Elves does in Glimpse or NO, it lacks the filtering that BUG has or the Card Advantage Loam has. In this case I think this would be useful.

This doesn't appear to be harmful to me. A player in the format yes, a blight on the format no. I mean we can all look back at the negative effects old cards had on us and the format years ago, but if we ignore that an opening hand of DRS and Decay across the table from us is a real issue for a deck, we are not judging the current time we are in fairly. We are looking only at the point in time the effect was strongest. At a time the choice was justified.

The question is not was the choice just, the question is if it is still just in a modern changing Legacy. I feel it's not.

[Sibelius]

The view from a Miracles player on the B&R lsit

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...the-kingmaker/

I hope you enjoy it!

Sib

[H]

The view from a Miracles player on the B&R lsit

https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...the-kingmaker/

I hope you enjoy it!

Sib

Mmm, that is some tasty bias.

Why are so many decks running Deathrites? Because they all want to slash Green.

Why do they want to splash Green? Because they feel they need Abrupt Decay.

Why do they feel they need Decay? Because you can't effectively fight the Miracles cards with Counterbalance on the board.

But yeah, ban Deathrite...