View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #16621
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I enjoyed the article, it is a new take on the argument that something needs to be done in legacy. While Shaman does keep down all of the old school delver decks, he also supports an entire class of BG(x) decks which are format favorites by the non blue players. I personally think something in miracles needs to go, preferably top. As it would be interesting to see he deck use miracles without the top engine, just jace/brainstorm/cantrips/scroll rack?, as he is correct about the sweepers in legacy costing too much.
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  2. #16622
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    We have no clue if sweepers cost too much or not. We haven't seen any other sweep effect really be playable in a hard control deck since terminus was printed. And toxic deluge is a powerful and cheap sweeper that would probably see an uptick in play if terminus weren't the clear and far best one to build around
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  3. #16623

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't think they should kill miracles, what i think they should do is ban terminus so we still have a countertop deck but it isn't too powerful. If they ban Terminus, miracles would have to play a fairer sweeper which will probably be Supreme Verdict.
    I think they should be focusing more on unbanning cards that have got to come off the list already like Mind Twist, Earthcraft, Goblin Recruiter, Mana Drain, Survival of the Fittest and others. What I think will happen is no bans. If they are going to ban anything they're probably also going to unban Mind Twist along with it which will affect the format about as much as the unbanning of Black Vise did.

  4. #16624

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jander78 View Post
    I'd love to see something like this too, but it's very doubtful. Mind's Desire may be a bit too dangerous to take off, but the others would be cool, and probably only slightly damaging if anything. Plus, Mana Drain is not on the reserved list, so it would give incentive to include it in the Iconic set (I know... no way in hell that's happening).
    I'd love to see them clean house and make legacy the wild west for a while.

  5. #16625
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    OK. Just saying because it is required in this thread. I'm moving past "just let it go" to "it's time to let it go"

    Terminus is fine. It has a drawback that is prohibitive, making it nearly unplayable. <--That statement would be true if Legacy was not a fucked up warped-ass format dominated by a single card. Miracles is one of many decks that only exists because we have this insane card propping up otherwise unwieldy cards.

    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS
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  6. #16626

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS
    If you can't innovate to beat the Gorilla Titan/Rest in Peace combo, leave the majestic 600 pound gorilla alone and ban RiP. If for no other reason than the That'sWhatSheSaid flavor text.

  7. #16627
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    We have no clue if sweepers cost too much or not. We haven't seen any other sweep effect really be playable in a hard control deck since terminus was printed. And toxic deluge is a powerful and cheap sweeper that would probably see an uptick in play if terminus weren't the clear and far best one to build around
    We do have a clue though. The fact that an uncounterable 4-mana Wrath doesn't see any play goes to show that 4 mana is too expensive for a sweeper. The fact that Pyroclasm doesn't see any play goes to show that cheap sweepers that don't hit big creatures like Goyf, Leo, Eldrazi, etc aren't good. The fact that it takes a 1 mana instant speed tuck to prop up a control deck goes to show how crap other sweepers are. Deluge only sees play because black decks can't run Terminus reliably, plus it has modularity whereas stuff like Drown in Sorrow's -2/-2 suffers from the same problem as Pyroclasm.
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  8. #16628
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS
    this.
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  9. #16629
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Is the announcement at 11 AM Eastern or Pacific this time?

  10. #16630
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Not sure. It's almost always 0200 on a Tuesday my time. That's 29 hours from now.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  11. #16631

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    We do have a clue though. The fact that an uncounterable 4-mana Wrath doesn't see any play goes to show that 4 mana is too expensive for a sweeper. The fact that Pyroclasm doesn't see any play goes to show that cheap sweepers that don't hit big creatures like Goyf, Leo, Eldrazi, etc aren't good.
    Verdict has seen play, but only in a more mid-rangy deck (Blade). It was run in smaller numbers.
    Basically Verdict won't support a control deck that prefers a clear board. It serves as a back-up plan for a deck built to leverage it's creature but needing a "fail safe" should the board get out of hand.

    Creature power (actually toughness) creep is way too much for sweepers like Pyroclasm or Deluge to protect a control deck.
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  12. #16632
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Why you guys/gals seriously are bothered that there is no card which comes close to terminus? Why not having Miracles play the same game as the rest of the format having to balance cheap, limited cards with high cost haymakers?
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  13. #16633
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It would be nice if they could *adapt* their strategy and play the same game as the rest of the format. But instead it's everyone else that have to adapt to a "1 mana: get rid of everything, no question asked" card.
    Ah yes, I forgot the totally backbreaking drawback of having to play brainstorm in order to fix a starting hand that has a miracle in it

  14. #16634
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Come on, if any of you really think anything is going to change, please given me whatever pills your on. The real question for this update is if Street Wrath gets the flick in Modern. Legacy, unlikely to change.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  15. #16635
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Come on, if any of you really think anything is going to change, please given me whatever pills your on. The real question for this update is if Street Wrath gets the flick in Modern. Legacy, unlikely to change.
    I have said that it would be nice if something got the hammer (terminus or even top, but a top ban would obliterate the deck completely), not that I think that something is going to get axed.
    Eventually it's going to be like it always is: from Tuesday, silence will fall on this thread until someone starts the "ban brainstorm" thing again.

  16. #16636
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    We do have a clue though. The fact that an uncounterable 4-mana Wrath doesn't see any play goes to show that 4 mana is too expensive for a sweeper. The fact that Pyroclasm doesn't see any play goes to show that cheap sweepers that don't hit big creatures like Goyf, Leo, Eldrazi, etc aren't good. The fact that it takes a 1 mana instant speed tuck to prop up a control deck goes to show how crap other sweepers are. Deluge only sees play because black decks can't run Terminus reliably, plus it has modularity whereas stuff like Drown in Sorrow's -2/-2 suffers from the same problem as Pyroclasm.
    The uncounterable 4 mana wrath sees no play because why would you play it when you have a 1 mana wrath you could be playing? There's no other control deck in the format, not because the cards aren't good enough, but because miracles is clear and away the best control deck and there's no reason to even try to play anything else. Yes the pyroclasm style sweep effects aren't that great anymore, but most red sweep effects are dealing 3 these days. And Deluge sees play because it is a good card, but it sees limited play because there's not a black control deck because why would you play black when you could be playing miracles? Miracles stifles diversity of control decks the same way that people argue Survival would do to green mid range decks, or delver does to aggro decks
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  17. #16637
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Miracles stifles diversity of control decks the same way that people argue Survival would do to green mid range decks, or delver does to aggro decks
    I think, that the underlying point made here is, that diversity suffers, if one of the available options is just miles better than others.

    In terms of Miracles its indeed pointless to argue about or consider alternatives to a 1cc instant sweeper.
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  18. #16638
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Deluge is also incredibly flexible. Sure, I'll wipe your board of all your X/1 and X/2 and still swing in with my Tarmogoyfs.



    I don't want Top to go. I like it in other decks. But Terminus is awful.

    Probably won't be any changes tomorrow to Legacy, but we can still hope.

  19. #16639
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    We do have a clue though. The fact that an uncounterable 4-mana Wrath doesn't see any play goes to show that 4 mana is too expensive for a sweeper. The fact that Pyroclasm doesn't see any play goes to show that cheap sweepers that don't hit big creatures like Goyf, Leo, Eldrazi, etc aren't good. The fact that it takes a 1 mana instant speed tuck to prop up a control deck goes to show how crap other sweepers are. Deluge only sees play because black decks can't run Terminus reliably, plus it has modularity whereas stuff like Drown in Sorrow's -2/-2 suffers from the same problem as Pyroclasm.
    That's like arguing that the format needs StP because Murder doesn't see play.

    The other sweepers don't see more play because Terminus outclasses them all. Who right in their mind would pay more mana for a worse sorcery speed sweeper when you can fire off Terminus at instant speed for ? And nonblue ways (blue has counters, Clique & Stifle) to fight it are basically non-existant (Teeg and Prelate, which both die to StP; also Warping Wail).

  20. #16640
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    The uncounterable 4 mana wrath sees no play because why would you play it when you have a 1 mana wrath you could be playing? There's no other control deck in the format, not because the cards aren't good enough, but because miracles is clear and away the best control deck and there's no reason to even try to play anything else. Yes the pyroclasm style sweep effects aren't that great anymore, but most red sweep effects are dealing 3 these days. And Deluge sees play because it is a good card, but it sees limited play because there's not a black control deck because why would you play black when you could be playing miracles? Miracles stifles diversity of control decks the same way that people argue Survival would do to green mid range decks, or delver does to aggro decks
    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    That's like arguing that the format needs StP because Murder doesn't see play.

    The other sweepers don't see more play because Terminus outclasses them all. Who right in their mind would pay more mana for a worse sorcery speed sweeper when you can fire off Terminus at instant speed for ?
    Did WoG or Damnation see play before Terminus was printed? No. Legacy is too fast of a format for a 4 mana sorcery-speed spell that doesn't have some iteration of "win the game" on it to be of any significant use.
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