View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 834 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 334734784824830831832833834835836837838844884934 ... LastLast
Results 16,661 to 16,680 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #16661

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    It's not like we've already waited over 3 years. The problem with Miracles is that it requires super specific hate to even fight. As per the nature of Legacy, the most +EV play it to instead just hope you're either not paired against Miracles, or completly switch decks ("format-wrapping") to something like Eldrazi. This leads to Miracles players often mistaking the rest of the format as "unwilling to adapt" and mention stuff like "just give it time and adapt."
    The meta never really adapted to Vial Goblins either and it wasnt until Future Sight when Goblins was dethroned. That was five years after Goblins had been tier 1. On a similar note, Solidarity died with Goblins around then as well.

  2. #16662
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,572

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The problem with the "just wait a couple years" is that legacy isn't dead right now, but it's not on an upward trend and whether that be because of prices or lack of support or whatever. A stale format that has seen miracles at the top for 3 years now with no end in sight is not something you want to see to keep players interested. I know in the Atlanta area we go through ups and downs and right now we are trending down and quickly. It's not like the other times though it was players moving in mass though. The players are still here. The interest is dwindling because the format hasn't really changed in so long and people are kind of getting sick of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  3. #16663

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I agree with all the recently written things here and just wanted to add : most people enjoy playing creature based decks and miracles takes any Joy out of those decks. Sure being unfun is no reason for a ban, but i just wanted to mention this when we talk about a stale Format. Personally I hate playing against miracles, you simply feel used afterwards, even if you win because He didnt flip Terminus after 5 fetch, cantrip, top Actions.
    .

  4. #16664

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    The problem with the "just wait a couple years" is that legacy isn't dead right now, but it's not on an upward trend and whether that be because of prices or lack of support or whatever. A stale format that has seen miracles at the top for 3 years now with no end in sight is not something you want to see to keep players interested. I know in the Atlanta area we go through ups and downs and right now we are trending down and quickly. It's not like the other times though it was players moving in mass though. The players are still here. The interest is dwindling because the format hasn't really changed in so long and people are kind of getting sick of it.
    I actually think the format has been solved, and I wholeheartedly agree with you. It took longer than I would have thought for the community to actually figure out the numbers in Miracles before Delver slowly faded away into the back of the bus.

    Honestly the downswing could just be the fact that Legacy is the most hobby-like format (therefore least lifestyle-like and less committed community in that region), card prices being fairly expensive and our population of our previous Legacy players moved on due to life reasons. It's at a point where the best Legact communities in a city shades in comparison to the MTGO Legacy community (which I believe is also the best flatform for the format).

    I have seen players from my LGS leave Legacy altogether because of the influx of Miracles, DnT and myriad of BUG variants. A lot of RUG Delver players I have met gave up on playing the format despite the financial investment. After building a RUG Delver deck and playing it for a long time, somehow in my mind I believe that just getting 2-3 Underground Seas just to adapt isnt stopping them, but having to learn a new play pattern.

  5. #16665
    Site Contributor
    Scott's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2013
    Location

    Virginia
    Posts

    656

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Interestingly, a lot of the usual suspects for unbanning fit into decks that are good against Miracles (even if it might turn out that the cards aren't good enough for inclusion, or the decks are still lower tier with its inclusion).

    I don't know enough about these decks to know
    - would Goblins, or a new competitive variant, play Goblin Recruiter?
    - would U/B Tezz, or some other deck that's good against Miracles (or not), play Mind Twist?
    - I assume some Enchantress builds would play Earthcraft but I wonder how much it would help
    - I'm not qualified to know if 2017 Survival of the Fittest decks would dent Miracles, but I feel like SotF unbanning talk is wishful thinking anyway

    It would be interesting to see which of the safe ones would do the most, if anything.

  6. #16666
    Some dipshit of a Moderator.
    Dice_Box's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2013
    Location

    A Tabernacle in some random Valley.
    Posts

    4,843

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I have said before that one of the issue for (not with) Miracles is its conventional axis of play. This means that you can't print something to easily attack it. For an example of what I mean, Storm, Lands, Dredge or Reanimator all play on a different axis than what is expected. Because of this, each one if able to attacked by cutting off its victory path.

    When printing something, say Wear//Tear that could attack Miracles, the deck can because of its style of play, absorb either these attacks because of the wide range of options available or use the new tools itself. I feel this actually works in the decks overall Disfavour. At one point Dredge was hated, RIP comes along, issue deminishes and we stop complaining.

    While I know that Miracles is far from the only deck playing on this axis, it's the most efficient at what it does. And it's resistance to being dethroned makes life hard for Wizards. Wizards is obviously aware of the issues, because they blantently stated Decay was made to deal with the issue. But that comes down to another of my previous comments. Wizards has a scalpel, it's time they used it.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVicious View Post
    Something about how fun it is pulling the wings off flies and microwaving the neighbors cat?

  7. #16667
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    That's a reasonable position, and why I think that an Entreat ban is sufficient to rein the deck in by making it more vulnerable to both control and really grindy midrange decks. I'd guess the matchup spreads are shifted ~5-7 points toward Miracles specifically because Entreat is a card that is commonly played in Miracles and lets Miracles operate as a combo deck whenever it needs to with essentially no deckbuilding concessions. If Miracles had to win with Mentor, or Jace, or Gideon/Elspeth/Baneslayer (or even Decree of Justice, which can't generate anywhere near the power Entreat can for a comparable cost), then the raw card advantage/attrition decks could actually implement their postboard game plan without having to kill before Entreat became an issue (thereby allowing Terminus to recoup more card advantage) or bring/leave in cards like Force of Will that detract from their primary gameplan but are ultimately necessary to not lose to even small, early game Entreats for 2-3 Angels that can be easily followed up with other must-answer threats like Jace in the same turn cycle.
    Entreat is just a killcondition and in no way responsible for Miracles' position towards Aggro & Combo. In my eyes, its pretty irrelevant how the deck wins after creating massive cardadvantage and tempo swings with Countertop and Terminus. Banning the 1-2 off which Entreat is, does not fix anything other than Miracles picking the next best option. Does this make the tempo-/cardadvantage of casting Terminus any less devastating?

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    I'd like to see Counterbalance banned because it does a lot to warp how non-combo decks are constructed (whether correctly or not) since people playing non-combo decks probably have a stronger bias toward wanting to 'play Magic' than those who play combo decks. I'd honestly rather see more Chalice/Thorn/Sphere decks to keep combo in check since they're much colder to individual cards like Knight, Daze, Hymn, Tarmogoyf, and opposing Wastelands or basics than Miracles is. I don't love the idea of the format being highly rock-paper-scissors, but letting Ancient Tomb and Delver decks be the combo police is more attractive to me than letting a blue control deck have all the tools to beat everything
    With Vial & Caverns and via cmc I see creature decks having options to get around CounterTop, so I don't view the issue as that dramatic as Terminus is towards the Miracles vs aggro matchup.

    I consider it positive, that aggro decks get more and more options to fight against combo decks, but I would wish that kind of softening the aggro/control/combo triangle would happen on an equal base. Flipping the Aggro vs Control matchup upside down with Terminus is ridiculous.
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  8. #16668

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Color me surprised. That said, I still don't think the speed of the format today would allow for WoG to come back into use. DnT has infinite taxes now compared to before, Eldrazi will kill you before you reach 4 mana, Delver will kill you before you reach 4 mana.
    Mhh what about being forced to decide if you want a better MU against taxes or eldrazi or delver (or all three of them, running more spot removals and losing some % against combo)?

    The entire metagame has to choose between having better chances against some deck or some other, miracles is the only deck that can reliably stomp any creature based deck, have a positive mu against 99% of blue non combo, having a fairly good mu against any non SnT combo.

    No simple answer can beat miracles by itself, and this is true basicly only for miracles in the current metagame, and the counterplay the deck offers is basicly limited to "I either have a counterspell ready or my board is going to get removed, so I either play into terminus and instalose if my opponent has it or a play slowly and I let my control opponent go into the late game when I will get smashed even harder", pretty cool

    And I dont even want a miracle ban in the first place, all I want is a blue - non combo deck that is clearly favourite against miracle, and which does not suck major dicks against the rest of the metagame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Entreat is just a killcondition and in no way responsible for Miracles' position towards Aggro & Combo. In my eyes, its pretty irrelevant how the deck wins after creating massive cardadvantage and tempo swings with Countertop and Terminus. Banning the 1-2 off which Entreat is, does not fix anything other than Miracles picking the next best option. Does this make the tempo-/cardadvantage of casting Terminus any less devastating?
    Nah, that's untrue, miracles is able to beat BGx midrange decks mainly because they are going to go into lategame and entreat is lights out.

    Banning entreat would make miracles worse against BGx, at least.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  9. #16669
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Nah, that's untrue, miracles is able to beat BGx midrange decks mainly because they are going to go into lategame and entreat is lights out.

    Banning entreat would make miracles worse against BGx, at least.
    BGx Elves?
    BGx Foodchain?
    BGx Shardless?
    BGx Delver?
    BGx Storm?

    Which one are you talking about?
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  10. #16670

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    BGx Elves?
    BGx Foodchain?
    BGx Shardless?
    BGx Delver?
    BGx Storm?

    Which one are you talking about?
    Mainly the fair side of the bgx, shardless, bug leovold and jund are not so easy, and in most of the games you tend to be losing for the most part, but managing the resources just to slow your opponent down until you hit angels is what makes those mu affordable for miracles.
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  11. #16671
    Force of Will is my bitch
    Finn's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2004
    Location

    South Florida
    Posts

    2,979

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    For the sake of proper history:

    Before Miracles, Legacy had been without a pure control deck for many years. Wrath of God fell out of favor quickly when people discovered that Goblins could delay it some games and vial out a recovery plan in others. Once Tarmogoyf was printed you often had to spend four as a sorcery for this one threat that cost 2 (backed up by free counter magic). It was spectacular to see the control players of the day lament how poorly this icon of pure control was faring in the young Legacy format. Once Wrath was not able to reliably reset the board, Landstill slowly faded away. By the end of 2008, zoo was on the scene and that was that. Lavafrogg tried to get Landstill to work with cheaper sweepers, but the players' imagination was unable to work with that. There was a brief period when there was a deck called CounterTop, but it's control was dubious, and it was occasionally went aggro when it went turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Tarmo.

    I recall being refreshed when we finally had a viable control deck again.
    "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
    "Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
    "Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
    "Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."

  12. #16672
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Apr 2014
    Posts

    950

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    For the sake of proper history:

    Before Miracles, Legacy had been without a pure control deck for many years. Wrath of God fell out of favor quickly when people discovered that Goblins could delay it some games and vial out a recovery plan in others. Once Tarmogoyf was printed you often had to spend four as a sorcery for this one threat that cost 2 (backed up by free counter magic). It was spectacular to see the control players of the day lament how poorly this icon of pure control was faring in the young Legacy format. Once Wrath was not able to reliably reset the board, Landstill slowly faded away. By the end of 2008, zoo was on the scene and that was that. Lavafrogg tried to get Landstill to work with cheaper sweepers, but the players' imagination was unable to work with that. There was a brief period when there was a deck called CounterTop, but it's control was dubious, and it was occasionally went aggro when it went turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 Tarmo.

    I recall being refreshed when we finally had a viable control deck again.
    Are we going to pretend like the countertop control decks of 2009 didn't exist and that the control archetype that was born after SFM was dominant until miracles became a deck didn't exist?

  13. #16673
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,572

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    And now we have an uncounterable wrath plus we have swords and snap caster mage to answer things that are big and scary on their own
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  14. #16674

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    Are we going to pretend like the countertop control decks of 2009 didn't exist and that the control archetype that was born after SFM was dominant until miracles became a deck didn't exist?
    Next Level Blue definitely existed. In fact, the very first incarnation of the deck had both the countertop combo, Predicts and Werebears. It existed before 2009 even. :)

  15. #16675
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts

    1,658

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Entreat is just a killcondition and in no way responsible for Miracles' position towards Aggro & Combo. In my eyes, its pretty irrelevant how the deck wins after creating massive cardadvantage and tempo swings with Countertop and Terminus. Banning the 1-2 off which Entreat is, does not fix anything other than Miracles picking the next best option. Does this make the tempo-/cardadvantage of casting Terminus any less devastating?
    Miracles often has to operate from a position of parity (or from behind) in terms of tempo and card quantity against some midrange and most other control decks, making EOT Entreats a big part of the strategy for those matchups, and a major source of 'free' wins, especially preboard. If Miracles is forced to use Mentor or Jace to win games against BGxy decks that it can't reliably bury under CA from Predict or lock out with Counterbalance, then people playing those decks can both know (or reasonably anticipate) what they're playing against rather than sideboarding at least partially in the dark and being forced to hedge against what is essentially a combo backup plan that doubles as a normal win condition. The whole point is that hitting Entreat does the absolute minimum to the deck and to the format while hopefully weakening Miracles enough that it's not as oppressive as it is now. It doesn't make aggro or combo better against Miracles, but the point is precisely that Entreat is the least intrusive option, and that's something that a lot of people favor.

    With Vial & Caverns and via cmc I see creature decks having options to get around CounterTop, so I don't view the issue as that dramatic as Terminus is towards the Miracles vs aggro matchup.

    I consider it positive, that aggro decks get more and more options to fight against combo decks, but I would wish that kind of softening the aggro/control/combo triangle would happen on an equal base. Flipping the Aggro vs Control matchup upside down with Terminus is ridiculous.
    I think you're oversimplifying metagame structure and matchup trends here, and drawing the wrong conclusion as a result. The traditional post-ProsBloom (and grossly oversimplified) order is either:

    Aggro beats Combo
    Combo beats Control
    Control beats Aggro

    OR

    Aggro beats Control
    Control beats Combo
    Combo beats Aggro

    Essentially, the deck construction choices the control players in a given meta make drive the matchup dynamics for that meta. Expanding that to a more realistic metagame composition (though it ignores the distinction between fast and slow combo as well as Prison) gives:

    Aggro beats Aggro-Control, loses to Midrange and Combo, and is roughly at parity with Control
    Midrange beats Aggro and Aggro-Control and loses to Combo and Control
    Aggro-Control beats Combo, loses to Aggro and Midrange, and beats Control
    Combo beats Aggro and Midrange, loses to Aggro-Control, and is roughly at parity with Control
    Control beats Midrange, chooses the split on Aggro and Combo, and loses to Aggro-Control

    More recent developments have shifted the balances a bit, with Aggro-Control adopting a more tempo-focused game plan and giving giving up points against Control to be better against Midrange and Combo, Aggro essentially dieing off, Combo shifting the Control matchup (without Prison elements) decisively in its favor, and blue Midrange hybridizing extensively with Control. These are largely intuitive outcomes resulting from creature power creep, and are broadly healthy for the format.

    Miracles is unusual in that it's a Control deck without Midrange elements, but its able to succeed because gains access to the most powerful (but conditional) sweeper in Magic's history as a direct result of having a Prison element be a key component of the deck. Because it can now both lock combo out without overloading on anti-aggro cards and minimize the number of dead cards game 1 against combo, it no longer has to choose one side of the split (which we both agree on), and Entreat (alongside the game's most viscious Nonbasic land hate) lets it steal games in midrange matchups and control mirrors where the opposing decks have successfully leveraged traditional strategies of one-for-one trades into substantial 'true' card advantage plays to exhaust Miracles' resources, meaning that conventional win conditions would likely be unable to pull Miracles back into games that Entreat wins on the spot.

    I'm fine with either banning Entreat to expose Miracles to bad Control mirrors (and some bad nonblue midrange matchups) or banning Counterbalance to force Control players back into having to balance their combo and aggro matchups. Terminus is insanely powerful, but requires setup and is the closest sweeper to the power level of the format's creature strategies. Counterbalance creates all he misery that Chalice does with none of the deckbuilding costs.

  16. #16676
    The Agonistic Antagonist
    CutthroatCasual's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2015
    Posts

    989

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    "I either have a counterspell ready or my board is going to get removed, so I either play into terminus and instalose if my opponent has it or a play slowly and I let my control opponent go into the late game when I will get smashed even harder", pretty cool
    And that's why I advocate for either a Mentor or ETA ban. ETA would probably be better because it takes away Miracles' ability to EOT draw untap win, which forces the deck to run more Mentors which are a non-bo with Terminus and can't stop Insectile Aberrations, and force the Miracles player to be more proactive with their spells in order to build a board presence.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  17. #16677

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Just casually decided to check it out. I did legacy archive of TCdecks from February 2009 (kind of an arbitrary date) to May 4, 2012 (Avacyn Restored release date) and looked for any deck containing the card Wrath of God

    http://www.tcdecks.net/results.php?t...ide=&strict=on
    That's pre Delver though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphix View Post
    Wrath of God absolutely saw play in Landstill/Stoneblade decks pre-Terminus.
    Landstill was not a very strong deck between the rise of Delver & Maverick and the rise of Miracles

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I think it is a good thing that control decks may have to supplement weaker and cheaper sweepers like pyroclasm and deluge or firespout.
    I think it's a bad thing if they have to supplement their sweepers with beaters like Batterskull and Goyf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraphix View Post
    Supreme Verdict is actually quite powerful in my opinion and would be played more in a world without Terminus, but as things currently stand it simply can't compete with the efficiency.
    Yes. In SFM grindy control-ish midrange decks, not as foursomes, and as a back up "fail safe".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Why you guys/gals seriously are bothered that there is no card which comes close to terminus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Why not having Miracles play the same game as the rest of the format having to balance cheap, limited cards with high cost haymakers?
    Quote Originally Posted by rubblekill View Post
    It would be nice if they could *adapt* their strategy and play the same game as the rest of the format.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    Miracles is unusual in that it's a Control deck without Midrange elements...
    That's the trick. We have plenty of good-stuff midrange in this format already. We have had so for years now.
    Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
    https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com

    You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
    http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...lara-lands-dec

  18. #16678

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Even the Weissman decks of the old had Prison elements (Disrupting Scepter). Fast forward to 2002, Landstill had the Crucible/Wasteland/Dust Bowl/Academy Ruins/EE lock. Of course, like how healthy metagames tend to be, nothing comes for free.

    In short, I think Counterbalance is to blame. The cost is far too low and is actually just a freeroll for Miracles. Deck is actually very ok as just a UW Control without Counterbalance.

  19. #16679
    The Agonistic Antagonist
    CutthroatCasual's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2015
    Posts

    989

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    In this current meta CB does very little outside of keep fringe decks without an answer to that card from doing well; not that they'd do well with the card out of the format anyway. The rest of the actual meta is playing cards that are very tough for CB to answer: Cavern, Vial, Decay, and 3-drops.

    I think if you ban CB, Miracles becomes Mentor Midrange. Not that the deck would be bad, but then there really is no more true control in the format (no, Shardless "Control" is very much a midrange deck first.) I guess you could try to replace it with Standstill, but I haven't tested that nor seen others test it (aside from that one guy a couple weeks ago) to make a comment on how that would affect the meta.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  20. #16680

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    In this current meta CB does very little outside of keep fringe decks without an answer to that card from doing well; not that they'd do well with the card out of the format anyway. The rest of the actual meta is playing cards that are very tough for CB to answer: Cavern, Vial, Decay, and 3-drops.
    But isn't a big part of that simply the fact Counterbalance (with Top) is so good that you have to be playing cards that are tough for it to answer?

    I think if you ban CB, Miracles becomes Mentor Midrange. Not that the deck would be bad, but then there really is no more true control in the format (no, Shardless "Control" is very much a midrange deck first.) I guess you could try to replace it with Standstill, but I haven't tested that nor seen others test it (aside from that one guy a couple weeks ago) to make a comment on how that would affect the meta.
    Without Counterbalance, I'd expect Miracles would essentially cease to exist and be replaced by Stone-Blade.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1948 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1948 guests)